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King High Flush Draw, 3 Way Pot...


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#1 Craigdog

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:05 AM

party poker 6 players $0.10/0.25 blinds NL HoldemHero is CO with $36.15 and has agg image but haven't done anything crazy (yet), Villian is BB and has standard steady image.BB $26.45Button $12.65Folds to Hero, Hero Riases to $0.85 with K :D 10 :D , Button calls $0.85, SB folds, BB calls, $0.60.Pot: $2.65, 3 playersFlop: J :D 4 :club: 5 :D BB Checks, Hero bets $2.25, Button raises to $5, BB calls $5, Hero?
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#2 Sheiky

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:06 AM

Call.

#3 mtdesmoines

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:14 AM

View PostCraigdog, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 8:05 AM, said:

BB Checks, Hero bets $2.25, Button raises to $5, BB calls $5, Hero?
Call. We need to keep BB and his money interested in this hand.
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#4 Citizen Erased

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:19 AM

If BB folds, I fold. Because BB called, we're getting 3-1 on our money, on a 40% chance of hitting. (Based on my limited knowledge of pot odds)On the contrary, though, we're 20% to hit on the turn, and I can't see this slowing down.Then again, we probably have good implied odds for +EV.(Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to get familiar with these approaches. Is this right?)Personally, though, I call
QUOTE (navybuttons @ Friday, August 8th, 2008, 3:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
$100 to a billionare is not $100 to a homeless woman. there is no natural law saying how much money should be worth to you. i'm not saying you shouldn't have a respect for money, but you should realize that $200 in your bankroll is no longer $200 in your pocket. once it's in your bankroll it should be the $200 to the millionare, that is, that it no longer has any real value to you. it becomes an investment by which to make more money and nothing more. it becomes just a number or an abstract idea of a number.


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#5 Zach6668

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:27 AM

View PostCitizen Erased, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:19 PM, said:

If BB folds, I fold.
Nope.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#6 Citizen Erased

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:43 AM

Yeah, I actually realised that when reading it back just now
QUOTE (navybuttons @ Friday, August 8th, 2008, 3:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
$100 to a billionare is not $100 to a homeless woman. there is no natural law saying how much money should be worth to you. i'm not saying you shouldn't have a respect for money, but you should realize that $200 in your bankroll is no longer $200 in your pocket. once it's in your bankroll it should be the $200 to the millionare, that is, that it no longer has any real value to you. it becomes an investment by which to make more money and nothing more. it becomes just a number or an abstract idea of a number.


"You're playing a dangerous game, and you're playing it wrong."

#7 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:12 AM

I raise the exact amount the button has left with plans to call BB if he chooses to push.We want to get as much money in now as possible, while the price and odds are very sexy.
QUOTE (NoBBiR @ Monday, August 11th, 2008, 7:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#8 Craigdog

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:16 AM

The problem with calling is that If BB has AJ/KJ or a set & the spade doesn't hit on the turn, he could lead out with a decent bet & I have to fold... No?
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#9 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:20 AM

View PostCraigdog, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:16 PM, said:

The problem with calling is that If BB has AJ/KJ or a set & the spade doesn't hit on the turn, he could lead out with a decent bet & I have to fold... No?
I think the only bet you have to fold to from the BB is a push...This is why I raise, honestly. Most of the time it's going to be proper to get your money in if you call and are bet to on the turn, so I just raise in hopes people go away since my money is getting in here like 99% of the time anyway. Proper odds or not sometimes people don't pay attention, or get scared when there are multiple players in the pot when they have a strong enough hand to continue, and make a dumb fold. Give them the chance to make a mistake.
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#10 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:26 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 10:12 AM, said:

I raise the exact amount the button has left with plans to call BB if he chooses to push.We want to get as much money in now as possible, while the price and odds are very sexy.
Umm, what? We get to see the next card getting like 6-1. Raising here is stupid. We have the price we need. There's no point in shoving when we don't have any FE and are holding K high. It's not like we have some massive OESFD or anything, we have a naked 2nd nut flush draw. Call the flop and continue to the river if you get the right price on the turn.

#11 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:44 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

Umm, what? We get to see the next card getting like 6-1. Raising here is stupid. We have the price we need. There's no point in shoving when we don't have any FE and are holding K high. It's not like we have some massive OESFD or anything, we have a naked 2nd nut flush draw. Call the flop and continue to the river if you get the right price on the turn.
The button has $7.15 left. If we assume he calls this raise every time that means we'll be paying $9.90 to see a flush draw we'd never fold if hit for a pot that's a minimum of $31.95 total. If the BB comes along for the ride that ups the pot to $39.10.Needless to say those odds are fine.Also, there is no action that can occur on the turn besides a Button push and a BB isolation push on a non-spade turn that will cause us to fold... SOOOOOO since this exact situation is so rare PUT MORE MONEY IN IF IT'S GOING IN ANYWAY. JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU HAVE NO FOLD EQUITY DOESN'T MEAN THE OTHERS HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT. GIVE THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A MISTAKE :)Those are my thoughts. Feel free to hate them idc I'm done with this point.
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#12 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 10:06 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

The button has $7.15 left. If we assume he calls this raise every time that means we'll be paying $9.90 to see a flush draw we'd never fold if hit for a pot that's a minimum of $31.95 total. If the BB comes along for the ride that ups the pot to $39.10.Needless to say those odds are fine.Also, there is no action that can occur on the turn besides a Button push and a BB isolation push on a non-spade turn that will cause us to fold... SOOOOOO since this exact situation is so rare PUT MORE MONEY IN IF IT'S GOING IN ANYWAY. JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU HAVE NO FOLD EQUITY DOESN'T MEAN THE OTHERS HAVE FIGURED THAT OUT. GIVE THEM AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A MISTAKE :)Those are my thoughts. Feel free to hate them idc I'm done with this point.
If the money goes in on the turn in that fashion, barring the push from the BB, then we're still seeing the proper odds to draw to our flush and we don't have an opportunity to get moved off of our hand. If we reopen betting on the flop, the BB might decide to push and then we have a mess on our hands. You need to flat call the flop bet and then hope to see the river as cheaply as possible. If the turn bricks off and the BB checks, you check, the button shoves and the BB calls, then you happily call with good odds to see your flush. If the BB bets, you call and the button call all in/folds or whatever and you still have the right odds.You have it worked out properly except that there's no benefit to reraising on the flop. The money can go in (safely) on the turn with the proper odds and you don't risk getting shut out of the pot or putting in all of your money on a draw.

#13 Zach6668

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:04 AM

Nuts,If we don't get the right price on the turn, we fold.That isn't a disaster. We don't have to win every pot, dude.Don't make a mistake on the flop, simply because you're scared of getting priced out on the turn. You're making a +EV call on the flop. End of story. The turn is a different decision. If we miss and we get priced out, we haven't given ANYTHING up.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#14 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:07 AM

View PostZach6668, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 2:04 PM, said:

Nuts,If we don't get the right price on the turn, we fold.That isn't a disaster. We don't have to win every pot, dude.Don't make a mistake on the flop, simply because you're scared of getting priced out on the turn. You're making a +EV call on the flop. End of story. The turn is a different decision. If we miss and we get priced out, we haven't given ANYTHING up.
I'm afraid of what we give up when we hit.Try seeing this hand more than one street at a time.Further more, would you push a set here? Do you want your sets to get paid off?Calling is +EV, I'm not denying that. I just think it's not utilizing our edges properly.
QUOTE (NoBBiR @ Monday, August 11th, 2008, 7:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#15 Zach6668

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:11 AM

Ugh, you don't make the set argument when all we have is a naked K high flush draw. You push oesfds, gutter+fds here, not this.Seriously.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#16 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:23 AM

View PostTemporary Nuts, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

I'm afraid of what we give up when we hit.Try seeing this hand more than one street at a time.Further more, would you push a set here? Do you want your sets to get paid off?Calling is +EV, I'm not denying that. I just think it's not utilizing our edges properly.
We don't need to "rep" a set here. We don't have any fold equity anyway, but we ARE getting the right odds to see our flush, even if we only get to see the turn.Since calling is +EV and we have no FE, where does this edge come from that you're talking about?

#17 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:30 AM

View PostZach6668, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 2:11 PM, said:

Ugh, you don't make the set argument when all we have is a naked K high flush draw. You push oesfds, gutter+fds here, not this.Seriously.
Let me put this plain and simple.Have you ever made a -EV play for metagame considerations?What's wrong with a +EV play for amazing metagame considerations?And I'm fully aware if you were the opp and you saw me go nuts K-10 on here you'd think I was INSANE. And this is the type of play that looks so astounding that EVERYONE notices, even the idiots. This is the type of play where the times you win the pot, people FLIP OUT and steam/tilt like crazy. This is the type of play where people will start calling down your raises veeeery light afterwards.Also, our % gain edge might be smaller with this line, but since there is ALWAYS more money behind it the NET gain may have little differential. Remember, amount invested in an edge is an equal determining factor in profit.Also it's quite possible that the others fold. If the button wusses out I guarantee the BB is folding. And it's very possible the button could fold something like A-J here. Looking at his stack size I don't see the minraise as an attempt to bloat this pot every time.It's also very possible a K is an out of ours.Take a look at some of my posts, there are a lot of times where I take the conservative end of things. But here, only one hand has a huge effect on ours, the nut flush draw. ATTACK THIS POT :club:
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#18 Acid_Knight

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:46 AM

Making slightly -EV plays in favor of +EV impact due to metagame considerations is fine.Trading in an undeniably +EV situation, to make a -EV play and justify it by saying "it was metagame, you'll make up for it later" is bad.

#19 Temporary Nuts

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:47 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 2:46 PM, said:

Making slightly -EV plays in favor of +EV impact due to metagame considerations is fine.Trading in an undeniably +EV situation, to make a -EV play and justify it by saying "it was metagame, you'll make up for it later" is bad.
It's not a -EV play.
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#20 mtdesmoines

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:48 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Thursday, October 18th, 2007, 11:46 AM, said:

Making slightly -EV plays in favor of +EV impact due to metagame considerations is fine.Trading in an undeniably +EV situation, to make a -EV play and justify it by saying "it was metagame, you'll make up for it later" is bad.
I always think of metagame as showing down a "poorly-played" winner, not a poorly-played loser.
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