Jj Facing River Shove

[whiterice714 0]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)villains 22/5 over 46 handsanyone help out w/ how to get AF to show in stats? just got PT... like today just got... MP2 ($21.20)CO ($25.85)Button ($21.60)SB ($28.80)Hero ($25)UTG ($20.35)UTG+1 ($4.40)MP1 ($32.60)Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J. 6 folds, SB raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $3.25, SB calls $2.25.Flop: ($6.35) 2, A, K(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $4.2, SB calls $4.20.Turn: ($14.75) 9(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.River: ($14.75) 8(2 players)SB bets $21.6 (All-In), Hero? calls??standard? what's his range? i put him on like 99+ A K / A Q... his PFR is sooooo low... now that i think back maybe i should flat PF... after he checks flop i figure there's a good chance i can pick it up w/ a bet... i think back & chances are i'm either w/a or w/b here & i'm not sure i like my flop action... river a standard call?now that i look back i'm not all that happy w/ the way i played this hand... critique plz

[Metternich 0]

I check behind on the flop, probably fold a turn bet if his preflop raise range really is small. As it is I call the river.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)villains 22/5 over 46 handsanyone help out w/ how to get AF to show in stats? just got PT... like today just got... MP2 ($21.20)CO ($25.85)Button ($21.60)SB ($28.80)Hero ($25)UTG ($20.35)UTG+1 ($4.40)MP1 ($32.60)Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J. 6 folds, SB raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $3.25, SB calls $2.25.Flop: ($6.35) 2, A, K(2 players)SB checks, Hero bets $4.2, SB calls $4.20.Turn: ($14.75) 9(2 players)SB checks, Hero checks.River: ($14.75) 8(2 players)SB bets $21.6 (All-In), Hero? calls??standard? what's his range? i put him on like 99+ A K / A Q... his PFR is sooooo low... now that i think back maybe i should flat PF... after he checks flop i figure there's a good chance i can pick it up w/ a bet... i think back & chances are i'm either w/a or w/b here & i'm not sure i like my flop action... river a standard call?now that i look back i'm not all that happy w/ the way i played this hand... critique plz

AxQc does this.

[Zach6668 513]

You're so helpful.

[Metternich 0]

I think AxQc would value bet the river, not shove it. Also, I doubt the AxQc would check call the flop.

[No_Neck 0]

GROSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSthats all I got for right now. If I am playing A+ poker (read up for the night) I think I can fold, but I click call real quick and slam my mouse.sorry thats all I got, really sick hand

[No_Neck 0]

I think AxQc would value bet the river, not shove it. Also, I doubt the AxQc would check call the flop.

Everyone thinks this, thats why value shoving the river is such a great play, if you think they have a really strong hand.

[Metternich 0]

I can kind of see what you're saying about the river, but would AQ ever check call that flop? Thats a spot where a hand like that needs to bet for information and at least try and price out any FDs

[No_Neck 0]

I can kind of see what you're saying about the river, but would AQ ever check call that flop? Thats a spot where a hand like that needs to bet for information and at least try and price out any FDs

you are assuming he is a good player. which is almost never the case here.

[danc1984 0]

To be honest I don't think you played this badly. I probably play it the exact same. Call the river.

[nomad_monad 0]

I can kind of see what you're saying about the river, but would AQ ever check call that flop? Thats a spot where a hand like that needs to bet for information and at least try and price out any FDs

yes AQ c-c the flop a lot8 handed it's rare that someone 3 bets preflop with something that has a flush draw here - pricing isn't that big of a concernAQ might bet for info. then again, AQ could c-c thinking that a bet is only getting called/raised by a better hand, and that not taking the lead isn't disastrous since plenty of turn cards give him a redraw and/or cause hero to check behind.as for the hand - at 25NL, i don't think you can ever fold the second nuts, even though everything about your post suggests he flipped up the Qc.

[Roberts2003 0]

yes AQ c-c the flop a lot8 handed it's rare that someone 3 bets preflop with something that has a flush draw here - pricing isn't that big of a concernAQ might bet for info. then again, AQ could c-c thinking that a bet is only getting called/raised by a better hand, and that not taking the lead isn't disastrous since plenty of turn cards give him a redraw and/or cause hero to check behind.as for the hand - at 25NL, i don't think you can ever fold the second nuts, even though everything about your post suggests he flipped up the Qc.

i agree, still gotta call though. its 25 NL, people suck, and you have 2nd nuts. call call call.

[mtdesmoines 2]

You're so helpful.

OK. So I'll deconstruct the hand: SB has AQo in the small blind. He raises PF and gets repopped hard. He calls to take a stand. Hero could be TT JJ QQ or KK, etc. and he could flop ahead. Flop comes and he hits TPTK with backdoors to the straight and flush. Villain can be reasonably sure villain doesn't have AA or KK. Maybe it's AK and hero will pay off if vallain hits his draw, so villain gets sticky with his TPTK and draws. He checks the flop to see what kind of bet the hero is going to make. The bet is reasonable for him to call with TPTK and double backdoor draw. Which he does.Villain sees a turn card and his nut flush draw starts to mature, but to make sure he doesn't stimulate a push, which would be too expensive to draw with at the turn, he checks again. He's still unsure what hero has, so he's exercising some pot control. The river comes gin. He has the nuts and he knows hero liked his hand, so he pushes and hopes the hero pays him off with JxJc TxTc ... whatever.The only hand left (since we hold the Jc in our hand) that check-calls the flush draw flop, checks the flush turn, but then goes crazy on the flush river is Ax?c or a total miss, or someone gone crazy with some other PP that has a c in it. I say it's 80% AxQc, 10% AxTc, and 5% PxPc and 5% unknown garbage/mini-flush.Also worth noting is that the villain is asking hero to TRIPLE his investment on the previous three streets in the hand on the river. River bets are always SO telling ...

[Zach6668 513]

Money that the hero has already put in the pot is irrelevent. It is known as a sunk cost.

[AimHigher 0]

This is a really sick hand. Nobody is mentioning that it is blind vs blind though, does this effect his preflop range or is it more likely he has a hand of solid value because he is calling a reraise?If we are giving him credit for a hand, this looks more like an ATc than a AQc, I think ATc is more likely to check this flop.If I had to guess I would probably put him on some kind of whacky bluff, here's why:He is putting hero on a good hand since he has reraised preflop and lead the flop. He knows this is a very hard call for AA, KK, AK. He also knows none of those hands have a club. These hands all bet this flop and he probably thinks QQ/JJ wouldn't lead that flop and pushes in hard to take the pot.I would have to call here and pray.Sick hand.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Money that the hero has already put in the pot is irrelevent. It is known as a sunk cost.

I see your point but don't necessarily agree. We need to reassess the value of our hands on every street.

[whiterice714 0]

what threw me off was he raised out of the blinds w/ a PFR% of 5... one of the reasons i felt maybe i made a bad decision PF was his range is pretty small w/ a PFR% that low... @ the same time, i was prepared to dump it to a huge 4 bet... after he flats pre & checks to me, i decide i'd rather TID on the flop so i rep A K / A Q type hand.. i insta shut down when he calls me... after i get there on the river & he insta shoves... i just kept thinking that's so gay, the Qc just got there and i'm gonna hafta pay it off... i was trying to figure why he would play AxQc so slow... obv in fear of AA / KK / A K, but still, wouldn't he reraise me on the flop @ these levels w/ AxQc? or at least lead out?

[mtdesmoines 2]

If I had to guess I would probably put him on some kind of whacky bluff, here's why:He is putting hero on a good hand since he has reraised preflop and lead the flop. He knows this is a very hard call for AA, KK, AK. He also knows none of those hands have a club. These hands all bet this flop and he probably thinks QQ/JJ wouldn't lead that flop and pushes in hard to take the pot.

No, both players can see the flush maturing all along. This is not likely to be a bluff.

[whiterice714 0]

also, i hate to beat a dead horse, but can anyone familiar help me out w/ how to change which stats are displayed in the Game Time Window for PT?mine are currently stuck on VP$IP / PFR% / BB/100(or hr?) / # of handshow can i change the BB/100(or HR) to aggression factor? that's so much more important lolz

[AimHigher 0]

No, both players can see the flush maturing all along. This is not likely to be a bluff.

Well, I suppose given the fact that hero is re-raising preflop a cautious AxQc does make sense. Does AxQc really jump at this pot so hard though if he is putting hero on a big hand with no club?

[mtdesmoines 2]

Well, I suppose given the fact that hero is re-raising preflop a cautious AxQc does make sense. Does AxQc really jump at this pot so hard though if he is putting hero on a big hand with no club?

Yeah, if he's got a habit of drawing thin, he has to get paid.

[Zach6668 513]

whiterice,If you're using PAHUD, it's in the options somewhere.If you're using GT+, it's in the preferences.If you're just looking at it in poker tracker, the AF is available in the General Info tab.

[whiterice714 0]

i'm not sure what other strategy there is to discuss w/ this hand... seems the majority found the spot as sick as i did & it appears the majority was in favor of the call (maybe i'm wrong... but that's what i did anyways)the whole hand had a wierd vibe about it, i almost didn't 3bet PF, but then i said fucc that no weak tighty today.. then thought his range has to be sooo small though, he never raises esp not out of the blinds when it's only $0.15 more... i figured there was the possibility i had 2 outs... after the flop comes i almost puke as it's pretty much teh worst shyt i could see... but then he checks, which doesn't make sense to me, & i did rep huge preflop so i'm following up no matter what (i think i'm folding if he donks into me like 90% of the time, if i'm feeling frisky i raise / fold that db cause i'm either brilliant [when it works] or stupid [when it doesn't] )after he c/c i figure there's the posibility i just ran into AA / KKhe checks when the flush gets there (i wasn't scared of it really, i didn't think he raise PF w/ QcTc or any small suited clubs for that matter) i check behind not even thinking that i have the redraw, still wondering if i'm vs top / 2nd set... then i get there & he shoves... which was both gay & stupid...not gonna lie i reverted to "OMGSECONDNUTZCALL!!" syndrome after i used up my entire time back.. results:villian flipped the worst played AsAh i've ever seen in my life... poker is fun...for every one... results aside i think the way i played this might be -EV in the long run for the following reasons... i would have lost some money in this pot had there been no clubs because i over valued my hand PF & chose to represent on the flop when it hit like 70% of his range... preflop i'm ok w/ 3 betting, but i feel i HAVE to lay down jacks if he made it like $10 to go in that spot... his range is pretty tight (it is over a small sample, but the guy literally raised like 3 pots the whole time i was @ the table w/ him) & i can make arguements for smooth calling preflop... i should probably be checking behind him on that flop & dumping it on the turn....obv i enjoy the way it played out much more, & so did my stack... i was just wondering about the rest of my line throughout, that's all.. thanks for the replies, i still have plenty of holes in my game & am trying to weed them out & eliminat them all together...

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I don't understand why you guys think this is a sick hand..? It's a pretty standard call.

[Snamuh 0]

Despite knowing the results, I have to call. I don't give dumb villains a lot of credit with moves like this and having the second nuts warrants a call.