17 replies to this topic

[MrNiceGuy]

$.20/$.40 Omaha H/L - Pot LimitME posts SB ($.20)P8 posts BB ($.40)Dealt to ME: 4:heart: A:diamond: 2:club: 6:club:P1_calls $.40P2_foldsP3_foldsP4_calls $.40P5_raises $.80P6_foldsP7_foldsME_calls $.60P9_calls $.40P1_calls $.40P4_calls $.40I have a strong low hand but very little chance at high, I figure it's worth seeing a flop.Flop: 3:spade: 8:spade: T:heart:Not a bad flop for me, I have 20 outs to the nut low, and I have decent counterfeit protection. Not surprisingly, I have virtually no shot at the high. Hopefully, I won't have to share the low if it gets there.ME_bets $.80P9_calls $.80P1_raises $1.60P4_calls $1.60P5_raises $2.40ME_calls $1.60P9_calls $1.60P1_raises $16.00P4_foldsP5_calls $15.20ME_calls $15.20P9_all-in $1.93The preflop raiser(P5) made that small reraise, so I suspect he's holding A2 as well and looking to build the pot. I opt to call but am wondering if I'm going to end up quartered. Then P1 bounces back with the monster raise, P5 calls, and I need to figure out what to do. It's $15.20 to call, I was looking at $45.60 already in the pot. At this point, P1 had $12.20 left in his stack, and P5 had $9.29 in his. I had them both covered. I figured I had plenty of outs to get either quarter or half of the pot, so I called. I'm not sure about this call though. It pretty much commits me to the pot, so I'm really investing $27, not just $15. But with 20 outs, I'm about 70% to make my low hand. Anyway, I was hoping for a low card on the turn, ideally a deuce.Turn J:club:P1_all-in $12.20P5_all-in $9.29ME_calls $12.20At this point I figured I was priced in, and still almost 50% to make my low.So, what do you think of my play on this hand? Particularly, should I have called the big raise on the flop? After looking things over, I think I probably should've folded at that point, since it appeared likely that I was drawing for probably only a quarter of the pot. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance for comments. I'll post results tomorrow.

[DKE_XP120]

Sorry to say this, but its a horrible play in my opinion. The premise of Omaha 8 is to go for a scoop or 3/4.... Dont play for half a pot, its not a smart play, you should have folded preflop

[MrNiceGuy]

DKE_XP120 said:

Sorry to say this, but its a horrible play in my opinion. The premise of Omaha 8 is to go for a scoop or 3/4.... Dont play for half a pot, its not a smart play, you should have folded preflop

I'm not sure I agree with you there; obviously in Omaha 8 you're looking to play hands with good scoop potential, but in the large multiway pots in these microlimit games, a premium low hand that is only likely to contend for half the pot can be quite profitable. Plus it does have a small degree of scoop potential, in that if I make the wheel I have the 6-high straight to go with it, plus the two clubs could end up making a flush, although it's unlikely. And if you change the 4:heart: to be the 4:diamond:, this would be a PREMIUM Omaha/8 hand.I'll agree that as is, it's not an extremely strong hand, but I think it's certainly a playable hand in a 5-way pot (particularly when I'm already partly invested in the SB).

[strategy]

I don't think you should have bet out on the flop or called any of the raises. You have to remember that even though you are guaranteed half the pot, you're still taking a very real risk that someone could also have A2. I've seen people play hands like A222 before; at microlimits, ANY A2 is worth a call or raise preflop to some people.In short, it's just too likely you're gonna end up quartered and you're calling off a lot of money with baically nothing. The possibility that the board comes 4-5 on the turn and river is there, but it's very unlikely.DKE, and everyone else who says that sort of stuff... there's really no reason to be so harsh on a poker forum. If it's a bad play, don't say it's "horrible" or "terrible." Try being nice, you might enjoy life more.

[DKE_XP120]

I'll try and choose better adjectives, but I like to convey how bad it is in Omaha 8 to set your sites on half a pot, even if he gets away with it this time. However, there is a more than reasonable chance he got quartered, or, how about the situation where there ends up not being a low.... he is risking all his money for the MAX of half a pot, and he isnt guarenteed that.Not trying to be a jerk, but its a terrible play, sorry.

[strategy]

DKE_XP120 said:

I'll try and choose better adjectives, but I like to convey how bad it is in Omaha 8 to set your sites on half a pot, even if he gets away with it this time. However, there is a more than reasonable chance he got quartered, or, how about the situation where there ends up not being a low.... he is risking all his money for the MAX of half a pot, and he isnt guarenteed that.Not trying to be a jerk, but its a terrible play, sorry.

Regardless of whether or not you're trying to be a jerk, note how my post did all the things yours did, without the highly negative adjectives. It bothers me to no end when I see people asking questions and getting "you're stupid for asking this," "you played this so bad," etc. in response. It's pointless negativity when all he asked for was advice.

[DKE_XP120]

I thought maybe I should elaborate on why this is a bad play.... You have 20 outs to your low, 4 7s, 3 6s, 4 5s, 3 4s, 3 2s, and 3 Aces (thats maximum) 44 unseen cards, 20/44 = .4545 (45.45%) to get your low if I am correctNow compare this situation, you're playing holdem you have Ace King offsuit, its heads up, flop comes 2 ,6 , 9 Your opponent shows you Ace , King and pushes all in, He has 9 outs to a flush with 2 cards to come, 45 unseen cards (since you know yours and his) .2 on turn + .204 for a river heart, or .4045 (40.45%) for him to make his flush by the river... so you have a choice, you can push all your chips in, hoping his heart doesnt come and you split the pot, or you can fold. Thats basically your situation, you're risking all your chips, for the max of half a potCorrect my math if its horribly off

[strategy]

DKE_XP120 said:

Sorry to say this, but its a horrible play in my opinion. The premise of Omaha 8 is to go for a scoop or 3/4.... Dont play for half a pot, its not a smart play, you should have folded preflop

Four to a six preflop is a beautiful hand, especially when it's A2x6. I would play it in any position, considering the huge potential if you hit 345, 245, 234, or 235. Going for a scoop is EXACTLY what you're doing with his hand.Read this. http://www.pokermafi...=40&action=zoom

[DKE_XP120]

strategy said:

DKE_XP120 said:

Sorry to say this, but its a horrible play in my opinion. The premise of Omaha 8 is to go for a scoop or 3/4.... Dont play for half a pot, its not a smart play, you should have folded preflop

Four to a six preflop is a beautiful hand, especially when it's A2x6. I would play it in any position, considering the huge potential if you hit 345, 245, 234, or 235. Going for a scoop is EXACTLY what you're doing with his hand.Read this. http://www.pokermafi...amp;action=zoom

My bad, see a flop, fold the flop

[MrNiceGuy]

DKE_XP120 said:

I thought maybe I should elaborate on why this is a bad play....  You have 20 outs to your low, 4 7s, 3 6s, 4 5s, 3 4s, 3 2s, and 3 Aces (thats maximum)  44 unseen cards, 20/44 = .4545 (45.45%) to get your low if I am correctNow compare this situation, you're playing holdem you have Ace King offsuit, its heads up, flop comes  2 ,6 , 9  Your opponent shows you Ace   , King  and pushes all in,  He has 9 outs to a flush with 2 cards to come,  45 unseen cards (since you know yours and his) .2 on turn + .204 for a river heart, or .4045 (40.45%) for him to make his flush by the river...  so you have a choice, you can push all your chips in, hoping his heart doesnt come and you split the pot, or you can fold.  Thats basically your situation, you're risking all your chips, for the max of half a potCorrect my math if its horribly off

Yes, 20 outs (my original post incorrectly said 24 - I just edited to fix that)But, I basically committed all my chips on the flop, which means I have two cards to catch my 20 outs. So that will by 20/45 cards on the turn and 20/44 cards on the river. My chances to catch it are 1-(25/45*24/44), which gives me 70% chance to catch by the river.Upon review, I think my flop call was bad, but I don't think it was horribly bad.

[DKE_XP120]

Flop bet was bad, the $1.6 call was worse, the $15.20 call was ghastly

[strategy]

MrNiceGuy said:

Yes, 20 outs (my original post incorrectly said 24 - I just edited to fix that)But, I basically committed all my chips on the flop, which means I have two cards to catch my 20 outs.  So that will by 20/45 cards on the turn and 20/44 cards on the river.  My chances to catch it are 1-(25/45*24/44), which gives me 75% chance to catch by the river.Upon review, I  think my flop call was bad, but I don't think it was horribly bad.

Ignoring the math, I'm just going to focus on one part of this. You count those 20 cards as outs, which is true, but you're overlooking the problem we mentioned; you're still drawing at a part of the pot in which you could easily be sharing regardless. You're just begging to get quartered by calling with a naked A2 for nut low most of the time in PLO/8. There's some value in calling a small bet on the flop, say 1/4 the size of the pot. If you can manage to hit a two on the turn, it will counterfeit someone else's A2 and your A4 will be the nut low. Other than that, you're drawing at 1/4 of the pot most of the time with the way the action went in this hand.

[strategy]

DKE_XP120 said:

Flop bet was bad, the $1.6 call was worse, the $15.20 call was ghastly

I can't help but laugh at your wording. Nicely done.

[DKE_XP120]

strategy said:

DKE_XP120 said:

Flop bet was bad, the $1.6 call was worse, the $15.20 call was ghastly

I can't help but laugh at your wording. Nicely done.

I took your advice, sorta... Maybe just as harsh, but more creative.

[MrNiceGuy]

Basically, I can predict that everyone's money will go in if I call the flop bet. So I can predict that the final pot will be $96, and my investment from the big flop call on will be $27. So if I'm drawing to half the pot, then calling (or even pushing) here would be correct, since I would win $48, for a profit of $21, 70% of the time, while I would lose my $27 30% of the time.But, if I get quartered, I'll only win $24 (and only 70% of the time), even though I'm investing $27, so a call in this case is awful. So after looking it over, I agree that calling the big flop bet was ghastly, horrible, awful, etc.

[MrNiceGuy]

Okay, thanks for the input guys, now that we all agree that I made a horrible call, here are the results of the hand:The river was the Q:heart: , so my low failed to get there.P9 had 4:club: K:spade: 8:club: 9:spade: and made a straight on the river to win his $22.62 side pot.P1 had T:diamond: T:spade: Q:club: K:heart:, and took the $73.50 main pot with his set of tens.P4, surprisingly, didn't have A2; he had 8:heart: A:spade: 4:diamond: 4:spade:, and was betting his nut flush draw (so I'm a little pissed at him, if he wouldn't have made that asinine 80 cent reraise on the flop, P1 wouldn't have had the chance to make his huge reraise, and I would never have had the chance to screw up and make that godawful call - at least he didn't win anything either :? )So, it turns out that I made the right call mathematically in this case, since I was actually drawing for half the pot (except if a deuce came, then I would only get 1/4). In other words, had I known what everybody had, I would've been correct to make the call.But, since P4 easily could've had A2 given his betting (and I strongly suspected that he did have it), in reality my call was horrible poker-wise, and the poker gods punished me appropriately.

[srblan]

What was your line of thought when you bet out on the flop? I am curious, not trying to be argumentative. This might be a question to ask yourself before you bet. Are you betting for value? No, you don't have anything. You have A6 for a high and a draw to the nut low. Are you betting for information? Apparently not, because when you get raised, you guess that you're up against A2 and "hope" that you won't have to share. Your goal is to scoop or 3/4 the pot, so hoping that you won't have to share a half is contrary to that goal. You COULD potentially make a profit if you got quartered in 4 way action, but that's only if your low gets there (and everyone else calls the big reraise on the flop, which they didn't). Your best move is to check the flop hoping for a free card (which you absolutely wouldn't have gotten, but it would have been cheaper to see the turn). If you decide to call the flop bet, check-fold the turn if your low doesn't get there. The only thing that making that small bet on the flop did was allow your opponent to protect his hand. By the turn, your equity has gone below 25% (22.6% according to my calculations) - 3 cards give you a quarter, 13 give you a low, and the other 16 lose. Meanwhile, the guy who made a straight on the river had 2 outs to scoop (non-spade queens), since the bottom of his straight brings a low. Anyway, the equity as I calculated it (assuming that I am interpreting the data correctly) on the turn is:P1 - 54.69%P9 - 10.94%P4 - 11.72%You - 22.66%Here, a fold might actually be correct mathematically. I am not 100% clear on the stack sizes, so I'm not sure. Based on your numbers though, about the predicted pot size, you are expecting to get $21.80 out of the pot on the average: not a great thing to throw more money at. If P4 had A 2 as you suspected he might, your equity goes down to 12.5% on the turn and his goes up to 21.88%. On the flop, he's got 33.05% to your 20.93% which means that you'd have a pretty clear fold based on your read that he might have A2. Hope is not a good enough reason to stay in the pot, IMO.

[MrNiceGuy]

srblan said:

What was your line of thought when you bet out on the flop? I am curious, not trying to be argumentative. This might be a question to ask yourself before you bet. Are you betting for value? No, you don't have anything. You have A6 for a high and a draw to the nut low.  Are you betting for information? Apparently not, because when you get raised, you guess that you're up against A2 and "hope" that you won't have to share. Your goal is to scoop or 3/4 the pot, so hoping that you won't have to share a half is contrary to that goal. You COULD potentially make a profit if you got quartered in 4 way action, but that's only if your low gets there (and everyone else calls the big reraise on the flop, which they didn't).

I agree, my initial bet out on the flop was absolutely a poor play. I intended it to be a value bet for my low draw. I basically butchered this entire hand with my collective flop play.

srblan said:

By the turn, your equity has gone below 25% (22.6% according to my calculations) - 3 cards give you a quarter, 13 give you a low, and the other 16 lose. Meanwhile, the guy who made a straight on the river had 2 outs to scoop (non-spade queens), since the bottom of his straight brings a low. Anyway, the equity as I calculated it (assuming that I am interpreting the data correctly) on the turn is:P1 - 54.69%P9 - 10.94%P4 - 11.72%You - 22.66%Here, a fold might actually be correct mathematically. I am not 100% clear on the stack sizes, so I'm not sure. Based on your numbers though, about the predicted pot size, you are expecting to get $21.80 out of the pot on the average: not a great thing to throw more money at.If P4 had A 2 as you suspected he might, your equity goes down to 12.5% on the turn and his goes up to 21.88%.

Well, I think the turn call is still pretty much automatic. At that point, I was last to act and everyone else was all-in, so my call of $12.20 would make the final pot size $96. 12.5% of that is $12. So I basically can expect to break even on average when he does have A2 (on my turn investment, not on the hand as a whole), while I can expect to profit on average when he doesn't. (It's possible that I might get sixthed, if so that might change things, but I don't think it's likely.)

srblan said:

On the flop, he's got 33.05% to your 20.93% which means that you'd have a pretty clear fold based on your read that he might have A2. Hope is not a good enough reason to stay in the pot, IMO.

You're absolutely right, the big flop bet should've been an automatic fold. (I also arguably should've folded befoe that, to the initial flop raise.) And I shouldn't have bet the flop in the first place. Obviously I couldn't do all the math on the spot, but it should've been fairly obvious that I was in a pretty bad situation - it was an easy fold, and I failed to make it.