Aa 25nl 6 Max

[SCS 0]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.10/$0.256 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $26.10UTG+1: $26.10Hero: $51.25Button: $21SB: $28.10BB: $35.30Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A A 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.Flop: Q T 6 ($1.95, 2 players)SB bets $1.95, Hero raises to $5.75, SB raises to $21.15, Hero...At the time of the hand, villain was an unknown. Played maybe 2-3 orbits with him, and hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary. What's our play here? Does it change if we have the A ?

[Snamuh 0]

I'm folding to an unknown because I doubt he's doing this with AQ, although I'm a nit. I see a pot sized donk bet, and a shove to a raise as a very strong line.

[NoBBiR 0]

I'm folding to an unknown because I doubt he's doing this with AQ, although I'm a nit. I see a pot sized donk bet, and a shove to a raise as a very strong line.

indeed

[danc1984 0]

No way I am folding here. We are ahead far more often than we are behind. This is top pair or a draw more often than QT or a set IMO.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.10/$0.256 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $26.10UTG+1: $26.10Hero: $51.25Button: $21SB: $28.10BB: $35.30Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A A 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.Flop: Q T 6 ($1.95, 2 players)SB bets $1.95, Hero raises to $5.75, SB raises to $21.15, Hero...At the time of the hand, villain was an unknown. Played maybe 2-3 orbits with him, and hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary. What's our play here? Does it change if we have the A ?

This is prolly KQ and QT getting it on.

[whiterice714 0]

sick.... the DB / 3 bet line screams you're beat IMO... you really think he just comes along w/ AhQx & then plays it THIS fast & hard? i'm guessing you ran into 66 or QTs... of course if i'm villain i'm playing KhJh the same way lolz...

[NoBBiR 0]

No way I am folding here. We are ahead far more often than we are behind. This is top pair or a draw more often than QT or a set IMO.

Actually I think we're way behind or in a race a lot more often than we are way ahead.

[Zach6668 513]

Does anyone just call the flop bet?

[No_Neck 0]

Does anyone just call the flop bet?

calling the flop on this flop is suicide unless you want to give up the hand when one of 20 cards fall on the turn or the river.I think you need to raise, then you need to use a read to decide if you his hand is a single pair or a draw often enough for you to call here. If you had poker ace or something like that it would be a lot easier. A of hearts doesn't really change much imho, it does give you a little more equity but it also takes away one of the hands you are in a coinflip with.

[Zach6668 513]

calling the flop on this flop is suicide unless you want to give up the hand when one of 20 cards fall on the turn or the river.

Well, I don't necessarily know how bad of an idea that is.I mean, I think we can all agree that when he donks, we're probably way behind, or we're flipping. Well, I guess I get that from his shove, so maybe this idea is being results oriented, I'm not sure. But imagine that's our read. We can see what the turn is, we can see how he reacts to that turn, and we can see if we can get to showdown a lot more cheaply with one pair. Like, our hand isn't defined as an overpair, and a lot of those cards could scare him as well, and we could possibly get a cheaper draw to beat two pair, or get our hand to showdown cheaply, when we're either wa/wb vs some hands.

[No_Neck 0]

Well, I don't necessarily know how bad of an idea that is.I mean, I think we can all agree that when he donks, we're probably way behind, or we're flipping. Well, I guess I get that from his shove, so maybe this idea is being results oriented, I'm not sure. But imagine that's our read. We can see what the turn is, we can see how he reacts to that turn, and we can see if we can get to showdown a lot more cheaply with one pair. Like, our hand isn't defined as an overpair, and a lot of those cards could scare him as well, and we could possibly get a cheaper draw to beat two pair, or get our hand to showdown cheaply, when we're either wa/wb vs some hands.

it just seems to weak to me... but I guess it also depends what your image is, I am playing one or two tables and playing more of a 35/20/3 style and I have to make these calls or I would be getting run over.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Puke and fold. We're behind just as often as we're ahead here. If we're behind, we're way behind, if we're ahead, we're slightly ahead.Though in reality I'm a station with A-A and I stack off.

[SCS 0]

Well, I don't necessarily know how bad of an idea that is.I mean, I think we can all agree that when he donks, we're probably way behind, or we're flipping. Well, I guess I get that from his shove, so maybe this idea is being results oriented, I'm not sure. But imagine that's our read. We can see what the turn is, we can see how he reacts to that turn, and we can see if we can get to showdown a lot more cheaply with one pair. Like, our hand isn't defined as an overpair, and a lot of those cards could scare him as well, and we could possibly get a cheaper draw to beat two pair, or get our hand to showdown cheaply, when we're either wa/wb vs some hands.

I think here though we're either sa/wb. Given the size of the pot and the board, I would have been happy if villain folded to my raise here. If I just call here, what do I do on the turn? There are about a billion cards that could hurt us and anything we do potentially hurts us.

[Zach6668 513]

Well, as I said, that would depend on what the villain does. Your call is quite strong, and he should perceive it as such. If a scare card rolls off, he could fear we're on a draw, and check, enabling us to either check behind, or try a bet to represent a better hand and check behind on the river, thus getting to sd cheaply. If he still bets into the scare card, then we can probably safely fold.If a blank rolls off, then we'd have to make a judgment decision based on a read, I suppose. We can call again, and fold river UI if he bets a 3rd time, or we can simply fold assuming he wouldn't fire again with a draw, or anything worse than tp, I mean, it's all read dependent at this point.I don't necessarily know if this is the easiest way to play it, but it may be the best. On the other hand, I'm unsure. My biggest problem is that we almost need to call a shove a lot of the time if we raise the flop, simply because we're not always sa/wb. We're only wb if he has a set. If he has QT, for example, we've got 5 outs on the turn, and 8 on the river, which is hardly wb. If he's got a draw, we're flipping, but clearly getting the price because of the money in the pot.

[Snamuh 0]

Does anyone just call the flop bet?

I do often.

[ActionFalko 0]

I do often.

Me too

[Snamuh 0]

The reason being that a raise tends to fold out the hands we beat and keep in what we don't beat.

[danc1984 0]

How can we just call the flop bet when draws make up a massive part of his range?

[Snamuh 0]

How can we just call the flop bet when draws make up a massive part of his range?

How can you define a large part of his range vs an unknown?Also, I don't think a PSB is indicative of a draw.

[NoBBiR 0]

I think here though we're either sa/wb. Given the size of the pot and the board, I would have been happy if villain folded to my raise here. If I just call here, what do I do on the turn? There are about a billion cards that could hurt us and anything we do potentially hurts us.

You just don't flat call and then you don't have to worry about it.

How can we just call the flop bet when draws make up a massive part of his range?

That's what I was thinking.

How can you define a large part of his range vs an unknown?Also, I don't think a PSB is indicative of a draw.

The whole problem with flat calling is that if the villain does have a set is that we are not going to be able to fold the turn or river when he keeps betting because the price will be too high and we'd still be beating all draws and top pair hands. We'll also have no idea where we're at. The donk/RRAI flop is indictive of a set (IMO) and even if it isn't, we're wayyyy wayyyy behind. I'm more comfortable finding out where I'm at and folding then calling and then having to find out if he has a big draw or a set on the turn when the price goes way up. Buy low, sell high!

[Temporary Nuts 1]

The reason being that a raise tends to fold out the hands we beat and keep in what we don't beat.

Isn't that what min-raising is for?

[Snamuh 0]

The whole problem with flat calling is that if the villain does have a set is that we are not going to be able to fold the turn or river when he keeps betting because the price will be too high and we'd still be beating all draws and top pair hands. We'll also have no idea where we're at. The donk/RRAI flop is indictive of a set (IMO) and even if it isn't, we're wayyyy wayyyy behind. I'm more comfortable finding out where I'm at and folding then calling and then having to find out if he has a big draw or a set on the turn when the price goes way up. Buy low, sell high!

You can't fold the turn or river to future PSB's? I think you might have a hard time letting go of Aces because if villain double and then triple barrels hard, I can definitely find a fold by the river, maybe even by the turn in some cases.Also, how is the price any different finding out on the turn? Your flop raise is essentially the same amount as a turn bet from the villain - you'd lose pretty much the same amount either way. The difference is that by flat-calling flop, you are given the chance to re-evaluate the turn rather than raising blindly on the flop.Say you raise flop and he flat calls (a play I don't mind doing if I'm villain with a set). OK, he checks turn, figuring you are going to bet planning to C/R you. Are you betting the turn? (You might to charge draws and you are going to lose even more money). Or you are checking behind, and then are you calling a 10.00 bullet on the river that a set would make (you certainly should be if you checked turn as you are still beating AQ/KQ and some other hands that might think they are ahead still)? Either way it's the same price as just calling down. The difference is you keep worse hands in.

[ActionFalko 0]

You can't fold the turn or river to future PSB's? I think you might have a hard time letting go of Aces because if villain double and then triple barrels hard, I can definitely find a fold by the river, maybe even by the turn in some cases.Also, how is the price any different finding out on the turn? Your flop raise is essentially the same amount as a turn bet from the villain - you'd lose pretty much the same amount either way. The difference is that by flat-calling flop, you are given the chance to re-evaluate the turn rather than raising blindly on the flop.Say you raise flop and he flat calls (a play I don't mind doing if I'm villain with a set). OK, he checks turn, figuring you are going to bet planning to C/R you. Are you betting the turn? (You might to charge draws and you are going to lose even more money). Or you are checking behind, and then are you calling a 10.00 bullet on the river that a set would make (you certainly should be if you checked turn as you are still beating AQ/KQ and some other hands that might think they are ahead still)? Either way it's the same price as just calling down. The difference is you keep worse hands in.

100% aggree. I couldn't have said better.

[danc1984 0]

How can you define a large part of his range vs an unknown?Also, I don't think a PSB is indicative of a draw.

I play at this limit on this site and heaps of villains would pot a fd here, or a straight draw for that matter. I still cannot see a reasonable argument for just calling the flop bet.For me, at this level, you will lose money by not getting it in with AA here.

[mln_falcon 0]

I flat call this and reevaluate turn all the time. If your raising this flop its because you want to get it all in, therefore I don't think that you should be raising this flop without a read. Yes a draw is a part of his range on this board, but any draw he has is not going to be far behind. As played I'm usually folding, but sometimes I convince myself I'm good and call and watch my stack go to 66.