23 replies to this topic

[therescav]

Hey all, don't post in strat really but I was after some real advice. Just some general advice in how to play the bubble.
By bubble I'm usually saying in 9 man sngs, top 3 paid. It won't matter how my stack rates to everyone else, it seems 3/4 times I bubble. Most of the time this isn't a bad beat, just I gradually get taken away. It seems like every move I make for the blinds and antes gets picked off. Even times when I have a nice stack usually 2/4 or 3/4 the short stack and big stack get involved and the big stack makes some horrendous play to double up the shorty.

I was just wondering If someone could give me some basic advice as to what I should do. I raise my button with any half-decent cards, I don't know if maybe im playing weak post-flop or what not but everyone else manages to take pots pre-flop and I can't. Any thing I should maybe look at in my play to see what needs tweaking?

Any help appreciated thanks.

[throwemaway]

What is your stack to blind ratio in the hands where you are raising on the button and getting played back at? Look at the size of your preflop raises and your c/bets and see if you notice a trend as to when you are successful with steals and when your not..Also look at what stacks you're trying to steal from..For example, say you're in the SB with 4K, CL is the BB with 5K and the other 2 stacks have about 2K (Close enough)...I would be folding a lot of marginal hands in this situation and looking to avoid confrontations with him because he can put you in a very difficult spot, especially post flop when you are out of position..

Last, I would post specific hands here..We're always willing to help and by analyzing others play, I know it helps me to plug leaks and realize what I'm doing wrong

[Sheiky]

Playing on the bubble in a single table SNG is like trying to dance an elaborate dance on a small platform suspended above a volcano.

I think the keys to playing on the bubble are picking your spots and adjusting your game every hand.

If i'm chip leader in the last 4, i normaly play very tight and wait for it to become three handed then start playing again. The play is usualy so bad in these that you can afford to drop a few chips going into the last three because you're confident you can outplay people 3 handed.

If i've got an average stack, i constantly look at the shortstacked played and see what he's doing, i will never raise his blind if i haven't got a decent hand and he'd be priced into calling with anything, and i'll normaly wait for him to drop of the edge.

Don't steal every rotation, it's far too obvious and no needed.

[therescav]

Thanks for the advice so far guys; I do usually go into final 4 being about 2/4 or 3/4, and I probably do have a tendency to try and steal once an orbit; often against the big stack. I'll post some hand histories when this sort of thing happens again; for now cheers for the advice.

[copernicus]

If i'm chip leader in the last 4, i normaly play very tight and wait for it to become three handed then start playing again.

I think this one is way off, unless youre not really "chip leader" but in a tight race for first place. With excess chips and the rest of the table playing tight trying to cash, its a perfect opportunity to play bully and then back off if you're played back at. It doesnt take huge raises and chip commitments to make it very difficult for the shorter stacks to play. Moveover, short stacks that have read Harrington are looking for "first in vigorish" to push with. By making small raises in early position you take that strategy away, and they are threatened with elimination with any hand they do decide to play.

[Cappy37]

If you are bubbling excessively, you may be folding to aggression too often. Table image isn't really important at the start of these, but even the biggest donks will pay attention to who is able to "lay down hands" late in these. If you are folding to aggression on the majority of your pre-flop steals, then who in their right mind is going to respect your raises?

It's tricky to protect table image as the blinds get up there, but if you are folding to aggression once you've put in the PF raise, or worse checking your flops when you are cold called, you simply aren't going to have your actions respected.

Remember, it's 4-handed. Reshoving with wacky hands like QJ and KT doesnt necessarily = you putting your money in behind. If you always think someone has a monster, you are going to bubble a *lot*.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: You aren't the only one afraid of bubbling. Do *not* forget that.

The bubble is a fine place to accumulate chips if you are ok with doing some gambling. And if you are in dire need of chip accumulation at this point, then you are playing way, way too tight in the early and middle stages. If you are entering the bubble 4/4, you are the favorite to bubble anyways.

[therescav]

If you are bubbling excessively, you may be folding to aggression too often. Table image isn't really important at the start of these, but even the biggest donks will pay attention to who is able to "lay down hands" late in these. If you are folding to aggression on the majority of your pre-flop steals, then who in their right mind is going to respect your raises?

It's tricky to protect table image as the blinds get up there, but if you are folding to aggression once you've put in the PF raise, or worse checking your flops when you are cold called, you simply aren't going to have your actions respected.

Remember, it's 4-handed. Reshoving with wacky hands like QJ and KT doesnt necessarily = you putting your money in behind. If you always think someone has a monster, you are going to bubble a *lot*.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: You aren't the only one afraid of bubbling. Do *not* forget that.

The bubble is a fine place to accumulate chips if you are ok with doing some gambling. And if you are in dire need of chip accumulation at this point, then you are playing way, way too tight in the early and middle stages. If you are entering the bubble 4/4, you are the favorite to bubble anyways.

This could also be a leak. Usually if I fold a hand to a reraise people will continuously do it to me and I won't make a stand. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Cappy37]

This could also be a leak. Usually if I fold a hand to a reraise people will continuously do it to me and I won't make a stand. Thanks for pointing this out.

Believe me, there is no one on these forums more qualified to coach you in cashing out for the bare minimum in any SNG or MTT. No one in the history of OPR has a higher ITM coupled with a lower ROI in NLHE.

In all seriousness the two basic pieces of advice for 9 man SNGS is: 1. )be the bubble aggressor, especially against stacks that you have covered. 2. ) If your heads up game is suspect, you will likely not be profitable in 9 man SNGs, because you are giving up way too much equity in the end game. You are better off in 45 man SNGS and MTTs if you are are weak in heads up play.

[copernicus]

Believe me, there is no one on these forums more qualified to coach you in cashing out for the bare minimum in any SNG or MTT. No one in the history of OPR has a higher ITM coupled with a lower ROI in NLHE.

In all seriousness the two basic pieces of advice for 9 man SNGS is: 1. )be the bubble aggressor, especially against stacks that you have covered. 2. ) If your heads up game is suspect, you will likely not be profitable in 9 man SNGs, because you are giving up way too much equity in the end game. You are better off in 45 man SNGS and MTTs if you are are weak in heads up play.

this seems backwards to me. The increase between 1 and 2 is much more important in a 45 (4.27 x the buy in) than it is in a 9 (1.8x the buy in). Thats the reason you are more inclined to "play to win" in a 45. If your HU game is weak then gambling to get into a position to win makes much less sense.

[Cappy37]

this seems backwards to me. The increase between 1 and 2 is much more important in a 45 (4.27 x the buy in) than it is in a 9 (1.8x the buy in). Thats the reason you are more inclined to "play to win" in a 45. If your HU game is weak then gambling to get into a position to win makes much less sense.

Well, from a "getting better at HU" line of thinking, you *want* the 9 man SNGs for the chance to practice and get better at HU. My point was: if your strength is more along the lines of late stage play, or even at a mid-to-full ring table, you are better off climbing a pay ladder in a 45 man SNG, where you can get some nice ROI without having to finish HU.

So if you are striving to improve heads up.. Play HU SNGS (or even 9-man). If you can't sacrifice profitz and would rather hide your HU game, play 45 man MTTs. I wasn't trying to be overly clever or anything.

[therescav]

I am a relatively good Heads up player, can turn 2k v 10k disadvantages into wins a lot of the time (I'm usually HU with an agressive donk), even from 3 players on I am pretty good at accumulating; it is usually just that 4 to 3 situation where I choke up.

In the last few nights I have been observing a lot more; changing how I play against them based on how they play (trap vs agression and attack against conservative) and I've already noticed some nice improvements which is good

[Temporary Nuts]

this seems backwards to me. The increase between 1 and 2 is much more important in a 45 (4.27 x the buy in) than it is in a 9 (1.8x the buy in). Thats the reason you are more inclined to "play to win" in a 45. If your HU game is weak then gambling to get into a position to win makes much less sense.

Prize pool is higher in a 45 man and you're likely to get deeper if you're good at everything but shorthanded play.

In a single table SNG you have to be good at short handed play in order to cash well. And since the prize pools are so small, you have to win more often to make them worth your time.

[copernicus]

Prize pool is higher in a 45 man and you're likely to get deeper if you're good at everything but shorthanded play.

In a single table SNG you have to be good at short handed play in order to cash well. And since the prize pools are so small, you have to win more often to make them worth your time.

But you have to get past 38 players instead of 6 players to cash, and you do that far less of the time, and to make a meaningful cash to make up for all the OOTMs you still have to be good at shorthanded play. Yeah you may get deeper in a 45...like the start of the final two tables...but then your down to 5 or 4 to make the final table and down to 4 or 3 for a solid cash.

If shorthanded is your weakness then yes, your ROI may be slightly higher playing 45s, but your variance is WAY higher, and most people are playing above their bankrolls, not understanding variance.

Cappy responded to my issue with what he said which was specifically about HU, not shorthanded, and very easy to analyze mathematically.

[Temporary Nuts]

But you have to get past 38 players instead of 6 players to cash

And the argument is destroyed in the opening statement.

FAIL

[copernicus]

And the argument is destroyed in the opening statement.

FAIL

Try explaining instead of flaming, if you can.

[Temporary Nuts]

Try explaining instead of flaming, if you can.

Well to someone who is all knowing and always right, why should I bother to explain my misguided thoughts?

Answer one question, to yourself. What type of play do you have while wading through the majority of the field in a 45 man? Or worded otherwise, What type of play do you spend the majority of the game accumulating chips in a 45 man?

[Sheiky]

Believe me, there is no one on these forums more qualified to coach you in cashing out for the bare minimum in any SNG or MTT. No one in the history of OPR has a higher ITM coupled with a lower ROI in NLHE.

In all seriousness the two basic pieces of advice for 9 man SNGS is: 1. )be the bubble aggressor, especially against stacks that you have covered. 2. ) If your heads up game is suspect, you will likely not be profitable in 9 man SNGs, because you are giving up way too much equity in the end game. You are better off in 45 man SNGS and MTTs if you are are weak in heads up play.

I think i may be joining you with that record if i continue like i am.

I suck at HU, but i have a 36% ROI from mostly 6-9 man turbos which i think is decent for a guy who hardly wins. I play at $5> games so that may be why.

[Temporary Nuts]

I think i may be joining you with that record if i continue like i am.

I suck at HU, but i have a 36% ROI from mostly 6-9 man turbos which i think is decent for a guy who hardly wins. I play at $5> games so that may be why.

Umm... not meaning to be offensive or anything like most my posts are... but isn't heads up in turbos like the most brainless portion of the game due to incredible blind size? I just can't see how anybody can be horrific at it... I think turbos are a good way of patching a HU leak.

[copernicus]

Well to someone who is all knowing and always right, why should I bother to explain my misguided thoughts?

Answer one question, to yourself. What type of play do you have while wading through the majority of the field in a 45 man? Or worded otherwise, What type of play do you spend the majority of the game accumulating chips in a 45 man?

There is little discernable difference between the quality of play in a 45 man and a 9 man played at the same stakes level. In fact the 45 man game may be somewhat more of a minefield because loose play and gambles to accumulate chips are more appropriate, and bad players inadvertantly fit that profile.

[Cappy37]

Prize pool is higher in a 45 man and you're likely to get deeper if you're good at everything but shorthanded play.

In a single table SNG you have to be good at short handed play in order to cash well. And since the prize pools are so small, you have to win more often to make them worth your time.

I'll go ahead and jump into this inferno, too...

Short handed play is *very* important in 45 man tourneys, because almost all of your chip accumulation opportunities happen in the final 3 tables, when you shrink to 7-8 handed from 24 left untill 18 left, and from 16 down until final table.

In both the scenarios above you are playing with anywhere from 5-8 on the table prior to the final table, and trust me, they are the KEY situations in determining whether you chip up or get greeted by the tourney lobby.