12 replies to this topic

[UNCpoker]

Ok these are the two hands that give me major problems in NL.I have read a ton of different ways to play these and I do realize it deppends on circumstances, but looking more for a general guidline.Say you raise 3-5 times the BB and a player after you goes all in, what would most of you do? Again, if you would do different things in different situations please explain.Thanks!

[tskillz187]

FOLD! If this is a cash game fold unless the player going all in is extremely loose the best situation you are gonna find yourself in is a coinflip and I dont much like puting in a lot of money on those. I can see in a tournament calling in these spots but I still wouldnt unless only the top few spots paid off in which case you need to be taking risks to get lots of chips or if the blinds increase quite quickly, also pushing all in in tourneys with these hands is better than calling all in with them because then you have people folding to you. I hardly ever like calling all-ins with AQ or AK

[UNCpoker]

tskillz187 said:

FOLD! If this is a cash game fold unless the player going all in is extremely loose the best situation you are gonna find yourself in is a coinflip and I dont much like puting in a lot of money on those. I can see in a tournament calling in these spots but I still wouldnt unless only the top few spots paid off in which case you need to be taking risks to get lots of chips or if the blinds increase quite quickly, also pushing all in in tourneys with these hands is better than calling all in with them because then you have people folding to you. I hardly ever like calling all-ins with AQ or AK

Thanks for the info. That is more of what I have been doing lately, how hard do you normally push them pre-flop if nothing but limpers in the pot so far or if you are first in the pot?Also, how would you play them if one raise into the pot of say 4 times the BB?And again I realize these would be general answers since it depends on the situations. This is just somehow a major leak in my game that I have got to correct.

[Scott3705]

Preflop 3x's BB. If there are a lot of limpers... I'll push maybe 6x's. Some people might say that's high, but I really try to keep people from getting odds to see a flop. In LP, I would say mix it up. Reraise every once inawhile, but also, call and see if your hand hits the flop. If you reraise, it will probbaly be checked to you and you should raise again regardless of wehter u hit it or not. (AQ don't reraise).Just the way I play them. A lot of people play them different ways though.

[LooseCannon]

UNCpoker said:

Ok these are the two hands that give me major problems in NL.I have read a ton of different ways to play these and I do realize it deppends on circumstances, but looking more for a general guidline.Say you raise 3-5 times the BB and a player after you goes all in, what would most of you do? Again, if you would do different things in different situations please explain.Thanks!

Generally, it depends on a few things. With what sorts of hands would your opponent do this? Are you a favorite against the range of hands your opponent would play? If your opponent would bet only AA or KK, it is a clear fold. If your opponent would do this with KQ, AJ, AT, and other hands you beat, then calling is usually a good idea.Are you playing a cash game or a tournament? In a cash game, a preflop all in is almost always a pair or, rarely, AK or sometimes a bluff, so unless you have a loose player, folding AK or AQ to a pre-flop all-in is a good fold unless your opponent has a smal enough stack that you have the pot odds to call even if you have the worse hand. In a tournament, there are times when you don't mind taking a coin flip with the worst of it. Some examples are when you are huge stacked and can afford to take gambles or when you are short stacked and need to double up.As for playing AK, if you are in a tournament, in the early stages, I might just call a limper or a raiser hoping to see a flop because winning a small pot right there doesn't help me immensely. Later in a tournament, especially once antes kick in, I may go all-in with AK because someone may call me with a hand as bad as AT or I may get a hand like 44 to fold because they want a cheap flop to try and catch a set. AK is still just ace high until you catch something, so I don't mind taking it down before the flop. I will often put out a pot sized bet unless that commits a third of my stack or more, then I might as well go all-in. At a shorthanded final table, I think you can rarely if ever lay down AK preflop.In cash games, it seems dependent on your opponents. AK is a difficult hand to play out of position if you don't hit the flop. If I am fairly sure that no one has AA or KK, then I would be willing to go all in with it preflop if there is enough money in the pot relative to my stack and I am against players who I think are capable of folding hands like 88 or 99 or possibly better at least some of the time in that situation. If I am against calling station against whom I have to show a hand and who would automatically call me with 99, then I would never bet huge. I might even just call and see a flop.In general, the guiding principle is to think about what the odds are you will get called and how happy you will be if called. If you're in the position of calling, then ask yourself what the odds are that you are beat and whether you have the proper pot odds to call even if you are beat.

[custom36]

NL preflop with AK - EP - Raise roughly 5xBB. This will keep the trash out and keep the number of callers to either one or two.MP - With limpers, raise about 4-4.5xBB. This should get you position while keeping the limpers in the pot if they have anything decent.LP - Eh, whatever you feel comfortable with. Lots of different scenarios here. Just DON'T check/call. If someone made a small raise, reraise and get them heads-up.With an all in - It really depends on your read and if you want to race. If it's a guy that likely has a middle pocket pair, then it depends on whether or not you want to race. If you think it's someone trying to pick up blinds or is incredibly aggressive, you may think about calling. If this player is generally pretty good, then it's best to fold the hand.

[UNCpoker]

Thanks a lot with the replys, after I posted this last night, I started keeping a journal with a few notes on the times I got AK or AQ regardless of suited or not to keep track of how I do with them.Now I will mention that I had my best run last night with them from memory, which tells me a few things, either if was just the odds working in my favor for a change or maybe I was really focused in on these hands and making the right choices.I won't get into the very fine details of each hand but will mention some of the things I did.I had AQ twice, now on these I raised 4xBB each time and won those preflop, which was great because I wasn't too excited about going in farther with them. No chance for flush or str8 along the way.AK, one time with position on one limper, raised raised 3xBB, Ace hit the flop and I bet 3xBB flop, 2xBB turn and 2XBB on river, he turned over AQ and I won. No chance for flush or str8 along the way, could have been more agressive maybe, but didn't want to chance 2 pair or set to beat me.AK, limped in late position, Ace rags on the flop, checked it to get a little action since it was a small pot, 10 on the turn, so I did bet out 3xBB to find out where I was and to chase away any possible gutshots, they called, River was a rag, bet 2XBB he called with J10. So won this one.AK, bet out 3XBB with position on two limpers who called, missed the flop all low cards, both check so I bet out 3XBB to take it right then or find out where I was, first limper folded, 2nd limper went all-in so I folded. Thinking maybe 2 pair or a small PP and hit a set.AK limped in late postion with one limper, flop missed me with rags 10 high, he bet out 4xBB and I folded, no reason to risk any chips here.AK last time for the night, early position, bet out 3XBB, 3 callers, wasn't too crazy about this. Flop came AA3, so I was now happy but didn't want to show too much strength and wanted to see if anybody maybe had a PP that just in case was 33, I get burned on this a lot. 2 limp, button player bets 2XBB, so small bet into a large pot, put him on a PP but not 3's, I called, other two players fold. Turn was a4, so I bet out about half the pot at this point,he only called, so still guessing a PP, River was a 10, I bet out a small bet for value, figure either I have him beat or if he raises big I am beat, he turned over A-J, which is not what I put him on, but I did take the big pot.Any comments on how I played any of these would be grateful, main goal last night was to be extremely aware of how I played them and to mix up my play in this tourney.Thanks to everybody for the post again.

[obs]

I think you limp too often. WHY are you limping with AK in NL? I'm just a limit player but that makes no sense to me.With regards to your last hand, I think making small bets with monster hands, like AK on an AA34T board when your opponent has shown little to no aggression, is weak. You don't make a small bet for value there. You make a pot sized bet for value. A few of your other hands you seem to be making way too small of value bets on the river, but I'll leave that to the NL players here.

[UNCpoker]

obs said:

I think you limp too often.  WHY are you limping with AK in NL?  I'm just a limit player but that makes no sense to me.With regards to your last hand, I think making small bets with monster hands, like AK on an AA34T board when your opponent has shown little to no aggression, is weak.  You don't make a small bet for value there.  You make a pot sized bet for value.  A few of your other hands you seem to be making way too small of value bets on the river, but I'll leave that to the NL players here.

Limped twice out of all these hands, not sure if that is wrong or not, but didn't seem to be a lot. I guess in NL you have to change gears a bit more than limit, and top pair with top or second kicker can easily go down in flames to a set, or weaker A or K that hits 2 pair. Limit you can only loose so much, but in a tourney it is your entire chip stack on the line and once you are out, you are out.In Limit I would never linp with AK, but that's because everybody gets in the pot and you want to chase them out. I would be interested if any of the other NL players ever limp with AK and if they do, what is their reasoning for doing so.

[tskillz187]

UNCpoker said:

obs said:

I think you limp too often.  WHY are you limping with AK in NL?  I'm just a limit player but that makes no sense to me.With regards to your last hand, I think making small bets with monster hands, like AK on an AA34T board when your opponent has shown little to no aggression, is weak.  You don't make a small bet for value there.  You make a pot sized bet for value.  A few of your other hands you seem to be making way too small of value bets on the river, but I'll leave that to the NL players here.

Limped twice out of all these hands, not sure if that is wrong or not, but didn't seem to be a lot. I guess in NL you have to change gears a bit more than limit, and top pair with top or second kicker can easily go down in flames to a set, or weaker A or K that hits 2 pair. Limit you can only loose so much, but in a tourney it is your entire chip stack on the line and once you are out, you are out.In Limit I would never linp with AK, but that's because everybody gets in the pot and you want to chase them out. I would be interested if any of the other NL players ever limp with AK and if they do, what is their reasoning for doing so.

I play NL quite a bit and I will not limp with AK, you have got to raise with this hand everytime! The only time I might not raise with AK is in the SB and i will just flat call and hope to hit for a checkraise, I think generally you are playing your hands a little too passively as well. You should have been able to get the whole stack with a flop like AA3 when you hold AK. You cannot be scared of 33 in this spot, I think you raise him on the flop that way if he does in fact have an A he is almost surely going to reraise you and thats how you get paid. Theres no reason not to play it fast after the flop with a guy betting, if hes bluffing he will most probably slow down after your first call and if he has an ace you can take him along for a kicker trouble ride. The way I change gears in NL is by playing fast and faster, I just don't see the profitability of not raising with AK, you are letting junk in to hit two pair on you too frequently. AK is not a powerful enough hand for me to try and play slow before the flop and then attack. The only time I'm not raising with a quality hand is in very early position with AA and KK at a loose table and thats only to reraise preflop.

[UNCpoker]

tskillz187 said:

UNCpoker said:

obs said:

I think you limp too often. WHY are you limping with AK in NL? I'm just a limit player but that makes no sense to me.With regards to your last hand, I think making small bets with monster hands, like AK on an AA34T board when your opponent has shown little to no aggression, is weak. You don't make a small bet for value there. You make a pot sized bet for value. A few of your other hands you seem to be making way too small of value bets on the river, but I'll leave that to the NL players here.

Limped twice out of all these hands, not sure if that is wrong or not, but didn't seem to be a lot. I guess in NL you have to change gears a bit more than limit, and top pair with top or second kicker can easily go down in flames to a set, or weaker A or K that hits 2 pair. Limit you can only loose so much, but in a tourney it is your entire chip stack on the line and once you are out, you are out.In Limit I would never linp with AK, but that's because everybody gets in the pot and you want to chase them out. I would be interested if any of the other NL players ever limp with AK and if they do, what is their reasoning for doing so.

I play NL quite a bit and I will not limp with AK, you have got to raise with this hand everytime! The only time I might not raise with AK is in the SB and i will just flat call and hope to hit for a checkraise, I think generally you are playing your hands a little too passively as well. You should have been able to get the whole stack with a flop like AA3 when you hold AK. You cannot be scared of 33 in this spot, I think you raise him on the flop that way if he does in fact have an A he is almost surely going to reraise you and thats how you get paid. Theres no reason not to play it fast after the flop with a guy betting, if hes bluffing he will most probably slow down after your first call and if he has an ace you can take him along for a kicker trouble ride. The way I change gears in NL is by playing fast and faster, I just don't see the profitability of not raising with AK, you are letting junk in to hit two pair on you too frequently. AK is not a powerful enough hand for me to try and play slow before the flop and then attack. The only time I'm not raising with a quality hand is in very early position with AA and KK at a loose table and thats only to reraise preflop.

So how often are you willing to risk your entire stack on Top Pair, Top Kicker? I mean expecially at $20 or lower buyin tourneys people will call a lot especially early in the tourney and get their weak ace or king to hit 2nd pair. I guess I may start keeping track of hands I play A-Q and A-K or ones I observe and see how many times % wise they win a hand vs. not.

[UNCpoker]

tskillz187 said:

UNCpoker said:

obs said:

I think you limp too often. WHY are you limping with AK in NL? I'm just a limit player but that makes no sense to me.With regards to your last hand, I think making small bets with monster hands, like AK on an AA34T board when your opponent has shown little to no aggression, is weak. You don't make a small bet for value there. You make a pot sized bet for value. A few of your other hands you seem to be making way too small of value bets on the river, but I'll leave that to the NL players here.

Limped twice out of all these hands, not sure if that is wrong or not, but didn't seem to be a lot. I guess in NL you have to change gears a bit more than limit, and top pair with top or second kicker can easily go down in flames to a set, or weaker A or K that hits 2 pair. Limit you can only loose so much, but in a tourney it is your entire chip stack on the line and once you are out, you are out.In Limit I would never linp with AK, but that's because everybody gets in the pot and you want to chase them out. I would be interested if any of the other NL players ever limp with AK and if they do, what is their reasoning for doing so.

I play NL quite a bit and I will not limp with AK, you have got to raise with this hand everytime! The only time I might not raise with AK is in the SB and i will just flat call and hope to hit for a checkraise, I think generally you are playing your hands a little too passively as well. You should have been able to get the whole stack with a flop like AA3 when you hold AK. You cannot be scared of 33 in this spot, I think you raise him on the flop that way if he does in fact have an A he is almost surely going to reraise you and thats how you get paid. Theres no reason not to play it fast after the flop with a guy betting, if hes bluffing he will most probably slow down after your first call and if he has an ace you can take him along for a kicker trouble ride. The way I change gears in NL is by playing fast and faster, I just don't see the profitability of not raising with AK, you are letting junk in to hit two pair on you too frequently. AK is not a powerful enough hand for me to try and play slow before the flop and then attack. The only time I'm not raising with a quality hand is in very early position with AA and KK at a loose table and thats only to reraise preflop.

So how often are you willing to risk your entire stack on Top Pair, Top Kicker? I mean expecially at $20 or lower buyin tourneys people will call a lot especially early in the tourney and get their weak ace or king to hit 2nd pair. I guess I may start keeping track of hands I play A-Q and A-K or ones I observe and see how many times % wise they win a hand vs. not.

[rog]

For a tourney, it depends on stack sizes, blinds, reads, payout structure, ambient air temperature, relative humidity, and what you had for breakfast. Seriously, there'a way too many factors to properly address it without nailing the question down more.In a cash game, for me at least, it comes down to stack sizes and reads. AQ I think it's safe to say fold. With AK, if you are 50/50, a call is correct since the blinds and your initial raise make it better than 1:1 money. If the all-in is unlikely to push with AA and KK, I'd call for sure. Yeah it's a race, but it's a race with a positive expectation for you. Without a read, or against someone dumb enough (or tricky enough?) to push with AA or KK with only the blinds and a small raise in the middle, easy EASY fold. Against a short stack, I think call is usually correct for AK, and maybe even AQ