Jump to content


Drowning On The River


  • Please log in to reply
120 replies to this topic

#1 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:31 PM

I've been sitting here for about 2 hours and haven't done anything special. I'd say the same about the villain. He seems to be a competent player who hasn't done anything unusual yet.2/5 NL.Villain - $1200Acid - $575 or soTightish woman UTG raises to $15 (smallish for the table) and I make the standard call in MP1 with J :icon_dance: 8 :icon_dance: . MP3 calls and the BB (villain) calls too.Flop ($60) 4 playersJ :club: 8 :D 3 :icon_dance: Villain checks, UTG checks, I bet $25, MP3 folds, Villain calls, UTG folds.Turn ($110) 2 playersJ :D 8 :D 3 :icon_dance: (A :))Villain checks, I bet $70, he c/r $150 more to $220. I think a long time and call.River ($550) 2 playersJ :D 8 :) 3 :icon_dance: A :) (2 :icon_dance:)Villain shoves. It's $320 more for me to call. Comments on all streets welcome.

#2 Pot Odds RAC

Pot Odds RAC

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 7,172 posts
  • Location:Motown
  • Favorite Poker Game:Live NL TxHE

Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:42 PM

Given the C/R on the Turn and the Shove on the River, I am giving the Villain credit for a real hand. Perhaps Top Two? Without any additional data, I'd have to get off this. What do we beat besides Ax?

#3 No_Neck

No_Neck

    this is how i roll

  • Members
  • 11,522 posts
  • Location:New Jersey OBV

Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:47 PM

have you seen him semi bluff? Pretty tough call... I would think you would have seen him go overboard with a single pair since you have been at the table for so 2 hours.

#4 CobaltBlue

CobaltBlue

    The Outlier

  • Members
  • 10,379 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Royal Palm Beach, FL
  • Favorite Poker Game:Hold 'Em, Crazy Pineapple, 2-7 TD

Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:58 PM

Probably play it the same and fold the river. If we've seen villain check-raise the turn with something like Th9h, we could get it in there, but since there's no precendence for that, I prefer the call. That said, it's tough but not impossible to fold the turn.

#5 NoBBiR

NoBBiR

    F34l2 Durrrr

  • Members
  • 3,522 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Binghamton NY
  • Interests:Poker.
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Lemon Tennis Hold Me Tightly.

Posted 08 September 2007 - 08:47 PM

I think I bet a bit more on the flop with half the table in the pot. Despite the board being somewhat non-scary, I don't really like betting less than half the pot unless you feel that if you bet weakly you might get raised by someone. I'd probably bet $45 or more.Other than that, I think I'm playing it the same and tanking the river before I fold.
"How do they put the ****ing queen in the window?"

Darvin Moon, I hope you die in a grease fire.

#6 tskillz187

tskillz187

    Great Tiger, you're next!

  • Members
  • 6,131 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brockport/Buffalo, NY

Posted 08 September 2007 - 08:51 PM

I don't think we can call turn and not call river. I think once you make the decision on the turn you have to call on the river. I think we should fold the turn though, I think he could have something like 33 or AJ very easily here, I doubt he has a worse two pair hand that he's value betting, so he is either semi-bluffing a draw, and then following it up with a full out bluff, completely crazy, or he has you beat.Since we have no reason to believe it's either of the first two I think it's a fold. Though in real time I'd probably either shove on the turn or call turn and fold river.
Naismith (2:56:11 PM): fuckerflakeoutonmystakingnowmakingmillions

#7 Naismith

Naismith

    Perry Friedman: I was planning on reloaded through Naismith

  • Members
  • 4,556 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BWTBH
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Limit Crazy Pineapple

Posted 08 September 2007 - 09:27 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 9:51 PM, said:

Since we have no reason to believe it's either of the first two I think it's a fold. Though in real time I'd probably either shove on the turn or call turn and fold river.
That's pretty much what I told Mr. Knight via IM before going out for a couple drinks. I would think this is almost always A8, 33 or T9 (possibly hearts), but only the latter two if I have evidence that the player is tricky. Without that evidence, I would think A8 here quite a bit.That said, sitting at the table, I'd probably find a call because I FLOPPED TOP TWOS!
Peace,
Jay



#8 dms26

dms26

    Poker Forum God

  • Members
  • 21,900 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 September 2007 - 09:33 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 12:51 AM, said:

I don't think we can call turn and not call river. I think once you make the decision on the turn you have to call on the river.
This was pretty much my thought. The river doesn't really change anything. If we call the raise on the turn you have to put villain on AK or AQ. We still beat those hands. So if I'm going to call the raise on the turn I can't fold the river when a 2 peels off. If villain seems like a fairly tight player and hasn;t tried any moves I'd consider folding the turn. But it's certianly not an easy fold.
QUOTE (CozMyn @ Sunday, March 8th, 2009, 5:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i tried to talk here about that program, the RNG , not to talk about when to accept all in without to see flop.
You can accept all in whenever you want, or whenever you feel lucky, but in virtual room's is not like in reality. In reality anything is possible... in virtual rooms you can be "the one" who knows the future, or who can change the future.

#9 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 08 September 2007 - 10:32 PM

I talked to Cobalt about this and he said that I can be considering calling with J8 here because of the good pot odds. Although I'm getting 3-1, I think it's important to realize that there really cannot be any hands that the villain is value betting that I beat. Therefore, we kind of have to come to the conclusion that he's got me crushed or was drawing on the turn and missed. If we're gonna call based on pot odds, that kind of means that the villain, who hasn't done anything out of line/elaborate yet, will be making this play as a semibluff turned full bluff at least 1/4 times.The only super draw out there is the T9hh, which makes up exactly one combination in a range of 33, A3, A8, AJ and I guess we can throw in JJ and 88 as well, although having case cards like that is always less likely. I guess there's a possibility that he decided to go nuts with just the naked T9, but aside from that, there really aren't any other options here.I don't think AK/AQ should be included in the range at all here.Looking over the HH, one hand I hadn't considered was J :club: x :D . The villain could've had that hand, raised the turn as a semibluff and then realized that his hand had no showdown value and then shoved the river. This actually seems the least likely of the possibilities, but it's something more to consider.

#10 tskillz187

tskillz187

    Great Tiger, you're next!

  • Members
  • 6,131 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brockport/Buffalo, NY

Posted 08 September 2007 - 10:59 PM

In the OP you said "I think a long time and call" for the turn. What are you thinking about? I mean, I would have assumed you would have thought about the river play when he's going to shove at you almost every time. I really think the decision here is turn based, I don't know if you are arguing against that or not. But once you call the turn, you can't fold the river with your odds IMO.I guess Jxhh could be in the range, but man, you're playing some very dangerous poker trying to widen up a range for a player that we haven't seen do anything like this before.I feel like on the turn folding > calling = raisingI'm actually not very sure where I stand on the betterness scale of calling:raising that turn. So what was the thought process on the turn?Mine would have been something like "Motherfucker just fuckin raised me, I have fucking two pair. What a fucking douche. Well, fuck him." At this point I wouldn't even think of which play was best but my mouth would say either raise or call and I'd have no control over which it said.
Naismith (2:56:11 PM): fuckerflakeoutonmystakingnowmakingmillions

#11 krup24

krup24

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 5,561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh, PA

Posted 09 September 2007 - 04:17 AM

tough handI would like to know why you bet so little on the flop. I think a stronger bet would define the villians hand better. I am torn between calling and folding here. The thing that is throwing me off is the small flop bet. I discard AJ cause I think that raises the flop. I actually discount most hands containing a J unless its something like J9. I think A8 easily calls the flop bet and plays the turn the same way. 33 could call behind the flop and play the turn the same way. I know you may not like this but as played I might have to check behind on the turn.
Give me a paper and pen so I can write about my life of sin. A couple bottles of gin in case I don't get in.
-2Pac

#12 David_Nicoson

David_Nicoson

    Official Forum Me

  • Members
  • 4,418 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis
  • Interests:Poker<br />Poker<br />Sex<br />Sleep<br />baseball<br />softball<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Axis and Allies and other lesser board games<br />Chess<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:pot-limit Euchre

Posted 09 September 2007 - 07:43 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 2:32 AM, said:

Looking over the HH, one hand I hadn't considered was J :club: x :D . The villain could've had that hand, raised the turn as a semibluff and then realized that his hand had no showdown value and then shoved the river. This actually seems the least likely of the possibilities, but it's something more to consider.
I wouldn't rule out any heart draw that has a reason to call the flop. He can easily interpret your bets as probes.How about heart draw plus gutshot? K :D Q :D, 7 :D 9 :), or Q :) 9 :).
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
I'm invincible. Like Super Mario when he gets that star thingy.


#13 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 09 September 2007 - 09:21 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 8:43 AM, said:

I wouldn't rule out any heart draw that has a reason to call the flop. He can easily interpret your bets as probes.How about heart draw plus gutshot? K :club: Q :D, 7 :D 9 :D, or Q :D 9 :).
The thing is, he got a decent price on the turn if he had a lot of outs. Especially with a hand like K :) Q :) where he might think that he has anywhere between 12 to 15 or more outs depending on my my hand, why is he raising with those and risking having to put his whole stack in on the turn?

#14 pokerinc

pokerinc

    insomniac

  • Members
  • 1,641 posts

Posted 09 September 2007 - 09:55 AM

Is he really splashing around w/ the goofy backdoor gut shot hands?A8 seems like a good bet. 33 as well. I'd lead the flop harder for sure. Probably frustration call the turn and fold the river. I can't figure out a hand that makes that play that you're ahead of besides 109hh and if so, well played villian.
Now working and pokering. It's like two incomes in one.
UFC July 4th weekend. Vegas!

#15 Naismith

Naismith

    Perry Friedman: I was planning on reloaded through Naismith

  • Members
  • 4,556 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:BWTBH
  • Favorite Poker Game:No Limit Crazy Pineapple

Posted 09 September 2007 - 10:48 AM

Whatever the villain has, I think we can all agree that he played it horribly!
Peace,
Jay



#16 dbl_j_22

dbl_j_22

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 73 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO

Posted 09 September 2007 - 11:20 AM

I think you have to call here, although you should have the best answer out of all the responses because you have the advantage of sitting at a live table. I woulda tried to engage him in conversation on the river to see if hespoke in like choppy sentences, you know couldn't flow with the conversation. I would also take time on the river decision and see if he does anything at all to persuade me one way or the other, but im just a lowlimit online player, but maybe you could pick something up.I think just looking at the betting line though, we kinda set this hand up for a super strong hero call, and if he's got a solid image and knows you have a solid image, the way you played the hand looks more like a scared jack, or just anything scared, esp when you said you took a long time to call on the turn, if he is observant, he might try to push through alot of hands here, I think caro says something along the lines, when an opponent shows more hesitation then normal, you should usually try to bluff more in that spot.I dont think he's even got a hand to value bet here that you can beat, it feels like the nuts or a bluff situation. So I think it has to be completely read dependent, but Ithink if you aren't sure, I dont mind paying off the bet, mainly just looking at the betting line, sure its 33 sometimes, A8 sometimes, but also the c/raise semibluff and you seemingly scared in my mind gives the villian more opportunity to pull this sick bluff off and I would think a lot of solid players are capable of that line.
Formerly Blink20 on this forum, but Ive been away for a while, and now I'd rather use my online poker name from stars as the name here.


#17 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 09 September 2007 - 11:36 AM

View PostNaismith, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

Whatever the villain has, I think we can all agree that he played it horribly!
Yeah, unless it turned out to be some elaborate bluff since it has the forum and the hero fairly convinced that it beats J8.

#18 David_Nicoson

David_Nicoson

    Official Forum Me

  • Members
  • 4,418 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis
  • Interests:Poker<br />Poker<br />Sex<br />Sleep<br />baseball<br />softball<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Axis and Allies and other lesser board games<br />Chess<br />Poker<br />Poker<br />Poker
  • Favorite Poker Game:pot-limit Euchre

Posted 09 September 2007 - 11:37 AM

View PostAcid_Knight, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 1:21 PM, said:

The thing is, he got a decent price on the turn if he had a lot of outs. Especially with a hand like K :club: Q :D where he might think that he has anywhere between 12 to 15 or more outs depending on my my hand, why is he raising with those and risking having to put his whole stack in on the turn?
Because you're playing your hand like you don't have anything. He can represent an ace on the turn and then continue to bluff if he misses.I don't think I call this turn unless I plan to call the river bet.
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
I'm invincible. Like Super Mario when he gets that star thingy.


#19 dbl_j_22

dbl_j_22

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 73 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO

Posted 09 September 2007 - 11:49 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 2:37 PM, said:

I don't think I call this turn unless I plan to call the river bet.
Thats the first thing I thought when I read the post too. I probably play like I nit too much onthe turn, but Ifold to c/raises alot with semi-strong hands if I know i'm not going to be able to get a great read on the villian. if I'm not sure what they are capable of I dont mind just letting it go, but I do think if you are going with the hand, then the river bricks, u just gotta grit your teeth, call and see if he's got it or not.
Formerly Blink20 on this forum, but Ive been away for a while, and now I'd rather use my online poker name from stars as the name here.


#20 Acid_Knight

Acid_Knight

    I'm what's left. I'm what's right.

  • Members
  • 9,292 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Favorite Poker Game:You vs Me. Cagematch.

Posted 09 September 2007 - 12:04 PM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Sunday, September 9th, 2007, 12:37 PM, said:

Because you're playing your hand like you don't have anything. He can represent an ace on the turn and then continue to bluff if he misses.I don't think I call this turn unless I plan to call the river bet.
Why can't you call the turn and fold the river?Why can't you make him shove the rest in on the river with the knowledge that you might have a set of 8s or aces up?I think folding the turn regularly here becomes very exploitable if you're only calling with aces up and sets and stuff, but I don't think that calling the turn in any way shape or form commits you to a river call. They are separate streets and you gain more and more info as you move along with which to make better decisions.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users