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#41 Allie

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:11 PM

No offense Farrell, but this whole concept is really bizarre. If everyone checks around, and a king hits the turn...you have the opportunity to make a stab at the pot (which is gone if you folded post flop)...why throw that away? The idea of folding so the others "don't have to worry about you"....I dunno....too strange for me.
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#42 gobears

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:11 PM

I'm going to change my mind and say that checking if a K falls is not a good play as I think that cdddc and emptyeye are correct. It is weak to just check; fire out a probe bet to see where you stand. If your K is good, then you can take down the pot.If no K hits, then just check or fold to a bet.Just folding has to be the worst option. Even the slight chance that a K high takes down this pot should keep you in check mode.Oh..and don't get involved with K rag pre-flop.
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#43 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:12 PM

Emptyeye said:

JFarrell20 said:

But now you're willing to invest in it if a King falls? Why? You have 4100 in chips. The pot is big, which means if you fire out on the turn any one of the remaining three could move over-the-top of you on a bluff just to try to take down a large pot. I'm not saying this will happen often, but why get involved here/now?
why should I not try to get a free card?
Re-read my original post. You're missing the point.

#44 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:16 PM

Allie said:

If everyone checks around, and a king hits the turn...you have the opportunity to make a stab at the pot I was in first position in a 5-way pot. Stop thinking of results. The odds of it getting checked around are about the same as Mike Matusow becoming a Saint...less than 5% for sure....why throw that away?
Re-read my original post. Throwing it away so that the others know right away that I'm out and they can become more aggressive, in hopes of one of them getting KO'd.

#45 Emptyeye

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:18 PM

I answered your original point several posts back. Your folding does not make either of the most common scenarios of elimination (Two people hit a decent hand and push; someone tries a stone bluff and gets picked off) more likely to happen. In this specific scenario, I've already decided whether I'm going to try and stab at the pot--your being there or not doesn't influence my decision.

#46 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:18 PM

gobears said:

I'm going to change my mind and say that checking if a K falls is not a good play as I think that cdddc and emptyeye are correct. It is weak to just check; fire out a probe bet to see where you stand. If your K is good, then you can take down the pot.If no K hits, then just check or fold to a bet.Just folding has to be the worst option. Even the slight chance that a K high takes down this pot should keep you in check mode.Oh..and don't get involved with K rag pre-flop.
It's a 1000 pot. How much you want me to "fire into it"?200 surely ain't gonna take it down, and it's just inviting someone to bluff me all-in. Trying to win this pot beyond the flop is utterly pointless. Much more pointless than completing the SB.

#47 cdddc75

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:19 PM

Quote

cdddc75][quote=JFarrell20][quote=Emptyeye]So in short, on I don, said:

Putting aside the fact that you mistakenly believe my completion in this pot was a mistake' date=' [i']how do you play this if a King falls on the turn with 4 people behind you?[/i]I've posed this query to two people now and I'm interested to see how you two try to reason the turn play in this scenario! :club:
What would you have done if a king had fallen on the flop...folded without a check too? When did I ever say I'd fold without a check when my king hits? If I flop a King I'm not even firing out (not with 4 people behind me). I'm praying for a check-around and hoping to improve on the turn. No need to get involved here.Good players would obviously bet out a king on the turn and play from there.Have fun getting raised by the player with K7, K8, K9, KT, KJ, KQ, KK, KA, or better.Seriously, have fun.quote]
If I was worried about any of the hands, I would have folded preflop.Your play is loose/weak.
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#48 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:21 PM

Emptyeye said:

I answered your original point several posts back. Your folding does not make either of the most common scenarios of elimination (Two people hit a decent and push, someone tries a stone bluff and gets picked off) more likely to happen. Yes it does. Surely you realize it's easier to bluff 3 players than 4!In this specific scenario, I've already decided whether I'm going to try and stab at the pot--you're being there or not doesn't influence my decision.
It's a 1000 pot. You have 4100 left. How much you gonna fire into this thing ?

#49 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:22 PM

[quote name='"cdddc75"][quote name='JFarrell20][quote=cdddc75][quote=JFarrell20][quote=Emptyeye]So in short' date=' I don't see what the point is.[/quote']Putting aside the fact that you mistakenly believe my completion in this pot was a mistake' date=' [i']how do you play this if a King falls on the turn with 4 people behind you?[/i]I've posed this query to two people now and I'm interested to see how you two try to reason the turn play in this scenario! :club:[/quote]What would you have done if a king had fallen on the flop...folded without a check too? When did I ever say I'd fold without a check when my king hits? If I flop a King I'm not even firing out (not with 4 people behind me). I'm praying for a check-around and hoping to improve on the turn. No need to get involved here.Good players would obviously bet out a king on the turn and play from there.Have fun getting raised by the player with K7, K8, K9, KT, KJ, KQ, KK, KA, or better.Seriously, have fun.quote][/quote]If I was worried about any of the hands, I would have folded preflop.Your play is loose/weak.[/quote]I never said my pre-flop completion was perfect. It was a situational call. More times than not I'm probably folding there. Actually it's probably right at 50/50. Most important factor being how aggressive the BB is. My completion of the SB wasn't my question anyway.

#50 cdddc75

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:25 PM

JFarrell20 said:

Emptyeye said:

JFarrell20 said:

But now you're willing to invest in it if a King falls? Why? You have 4100 in chips. The pot is big, which means if you fire out on the turn any one of the remaining three could move over-the-top of you on a bluff just to try to take down a large pot. I'm not saying this will happen often, but why get involved here/now?
why should I not try to get a free card?
Re-read my original post. You're missing the point.
Read the replies. Just in case you can't bother:1. Checking gives you a small chance to win the pot, folding gives you no chance.2. Most players aren't suddenly going to go broke because the small blind folds on the flop to thin the field a bit. They'll go broke because they hit the flop hard or because they are retarded.3. Counting on others to eliminate players for you is weak.And a new point #4:4. Folding on the flop makes you look like a loose fish that missed the flop completely. It is so uncommon and noticable that people will lose respect for you and your table image will suffer. See this thread if you don't believe me.
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"Poker is 98% luck, I'm trying to make it 97.8% luck. " -- JFarrell20, deported village idiot

#51 gobears

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:26 PM

JFarrell20 said:

gobears said:

I'm going to change my mind and say that checking if a K falls is not a good play as I think that cdddc and emptyeye are correct. It is weak to just check; fire out a probe bet to see where you stand. If your K is good, then you can take down the pot.If no K hits, then just check or fold to a bet.Just folding has to be the worst option. Even the slight chance that a K high takes down this pot should keep you in check mode.Oh..and don't get involved with K rag pre-flop.
It's a 1000 pot. How much you want me to "fire into it"?200 surely ain't gonna take it down, and it's just inviting someone to bluff me all-in. Trying to win this pot beyond the flop is utterly pointless. Much more pointless than completing the SB.
Fire out 500 (1/2 the pot) if a K falls. You've invested 700 and still have 3,400 left if someone comes over the top on you. They could bluff you or they could actually have a hand that beats you or they could lay it down after your bet because you have them beat. Sometimes, Top pair weak kicker wins.
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#52 cdddc75

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:27 PM

JFarrell20 said:

I never said my pre-flop completion was perfect. It was a situational call. More times than not I'm probably folding there. Actually it's probably right at 50/50. Most important factor being how aggressive the BB is. My completion of the SB wasn't my question anyway.
Completing with K6 with three limpers is loose under nearly any circumstances. Since you gave context to support your theory, that context is free game. If you don't limp with K6, you won't have a fancy theory to submit to the free world.
"I'd root for Hellmuth against my Mother if I knew Phil was holding the Krablar." -- BigDMcGee

"Poker is 98% luck, I'm trying to make it 97.8% luck. " -- JFarrell20, deported village idiot

#53 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:28 PM

cdddc75 said:

JFarrell20 said:

Emptyeye said:

JFarrell20 said:

But now you're willing to invest in it if a King falls? Why? You have 4100 in chips. The pot is big, which means if you fire out on the turn any one of the remaining three could move over-the-top of you on a bluff just to try to take down a large pot. I'm not saying this will happen often, but why get involved here/now?
why should I not try to get a free card?
Re-read my original post. You're missing the point.
Read the replies. Just in case you can't bother:1. Checking gives you a small chance to win the pot, folding gives you no chance.2. Most players aren't suddenly going to go broke because the small blind folds on the flop to thin the field a bit. They'll go broke because they hit the flop hard or because they are retarded.3. Counting on others to eliminate players for you is weak.And a new point #4:4. Folding on the flop makes you look like a loose fish that missed the flop completely. It is so uncommon and noticable that people will lose respect for you and your table image will suffer. See this thread if you don't believe me.
Fine by me. I'd love to have people fire bets at me thinking they've got the best of it. That is usually what these morons do anyway. Go read my post "Some NL SNG hands" which is the tourney in which this K6 hand arose. You'll see two examples of people overplaying their hand right into my smoothcalls.

#54 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:33 PM

gobears said:

JFarrell20 said:

gobears said:

I'm going to change my mind and say that checking if a K falls is not a good play as I think that cdddc and emptyeye are correct. It is weak to just check; fire out a probe bet to see where you stand. If your K is good, then you can take down the pot.If no K hits, then just check or fold to a bet.Just folding has to be the worst option. Even the slight chance that a K high takes down this pot should keep you in check mode.Oh..and don't get involved with K rag pre-flop.
It's a 1000 pot. How much you want me to "fire into it"?200 surely ain't gonna take it down, and it's just inviting someone to bluff me all-in. Trying to win this pot beyond the flop is utterly pointless. Much more pointless than completing the SB.
Fire out 500 (1/2 the pot) if a K falls. You've invested 700 and still have 3,400 left if someone comes over the top on you. Firing out 12.5% of my stack on the TURN with 4 players behind me is HORRENDOUS! HORRENDOUS! I seriously hope you don't mean this. You do realize there's another round of betting right? And, to continue showing strength I'd have to bet at least 1K on the river, unless I feel like check/folding to a river bluff. Betting here when you don't have to is the luxury of sitting on a large chipstack. So is completing the SB with less-than-desirable holdings. When you get to that point in a tourney, you'll know what I mean.They could bluff you or they could actually have a hand that beats you or they could lay it down after your bet because you have them beat. More likely they have me, or they bluff me. Not worth .5K. not worth more than 200, and that isn't even going to thin the field.Sometimes, Top pair weak kicker wins.
Sure it does, but why invest in it here/now?

#55 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:34 PM

cdddc75 said:

JFarrell20 said:

I never said my pre-flop completion was perfect. It was a situational call. More times than not I'm probably folding there. Actually it's probably right at 50/50. Most important factor being how aggressive the BB is. My completion of the SB wasn't my question anyway.
Completing with K6 with three limpers is loose under nearly any circumstances. Since you gave context to support your theory, that context is free game. If you don't limp with K6, you won't have a fancy theory to submit to the free world.
OK , say I was the BB with the same hand and there were 4 limpers ahead of me but the SB folded. I'm still first to act post-flop. Still a 5-way pot. Same scenario.

#56 Emptyeye

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:41 PM

I CHECK to try and get a free card, unless I hit the king. Then I fire at it.And I still say the completing preflop is pointless if you're not going to follow up when you get a piece of it that may well be good.

#57 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:45 PM

OK, 54 replies in less than a day, and nobody's been able to prove me wrong beyond "you are the village idiot because of prior posts."Funny how my "revolutionary idea" garnered 95 posts, all the while, me having to listen to people tell me how "crazy" and "stupid" I was.95 posts. 54 for this one. Funny, because this thread is another "stupid", and "crazy" idea. I love watching people try to gang up on me and lose. I've got more than 3 people fighting me here and nobody can win. :roll: Anyway, I'm heading home so I won't be posting for a while. Have fun trying to come up with new and improved ways to not disprove me!-The J-man.

#58 RonBurgundy

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:46 PM

RonBurgundy said:

the miniscule possibility that what you're talking about happens is negated by the times its checked around and you river trips or 2 pair
Period. You are wrong on this, no matter how much you argue. And I'm talking postflop as well. Stop.

#59 JFarrell20

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:47 PM

Emptyeye said:

I CHECK to try and get a free card, unless I hit the king. Then I fire at it.And I still say the completing preflop is pointless if you're not going to follow up when you get a piece of it that may well be good.
I didn't get a piece of it. At all. Checking here with the hopes of 4 people checking behind you for a 1K pot is absolutely futile. It's "weak sauce" as some dude on Party Poker once was heard to say. lol.Have you played tourney poker lately?Anyway I gotta run. Gotta get home and go play poorly in another tournament.

#60 cdddc75

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:49 PM

JFarrell20 said:

OK, 54 replies in less than a day, and nobody's been able to prove me wrong beyond "you are the village idiot because of prior posts."Funny how my "revolutionary idea" garnered 95 posts, all the while, me having to listen to people tell me how "crazy" and "stupid" I was.95 posts. 54 for this one. Funny, because this thread is another "stupid", and "crazy" idea. I love watching people try to gang up on me and lose. I've got more than 3 people fighting me here and nobody can win. :roll: Anyway, I'm heading home so I won't be posting for a while. Have fun trying to come up with new and improved ways to not disprove me!-The J-man.
I love attention tramps who fan the flames because they refuse to acknowledge common sense when it slaps them in the face.

Quote

1. Checking gives you a small chance to win the pot, folding gives you no chance. 2. Most players aren't suddenly going to go broke because the small blind folds on the flop to thin the field a bit. They'll go broke because they hit the flop hard or because they are retarded. 3. Counting on others to eliminate players for you is weak. And a new point #4: 4. Folding on the flop makes you look like a loose fish that missed the flop completely. It is so uncommon and noticable that people will lose respect for you and your table image will suffer. See this thread if you don't believe me.
You refuted point #4 by acknowledging that you like to have a soft table image. Fair enough. Now refute the other three with logic before you claim victory. You've been disproven until you prove these points wrong.I can't wait to see how you logically disprove point #1. That will be a treat.
"I'd root for Hellmuth against my Mother if I knew Phil was holding the Krablar." -- BigDMcGee

"Poker is 98% luck, I'm trying to make it 97.8% luck. " -- JFarrell20, deported village idiot




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