14 replies to this topic

[Ricer98]

Don't have the actual hand history so I'll try to summerize as best I can. Villian is farily new to the table only a few rotations in. 0.10/0.25 NL, 6 max, on Ultimate Bet.

6 Handed, effective stack sizes right around $25.00

UTG folds, hero raises to $0.85 with 8c9c, CO folds, BTN Calls, blinds fold

Flop (Pot - $2.05) - J,9,X, I don't think any flush draws were out, Hero bets $1.50, Villian calls quickly

Turn (Pot - $5.05) - X, don't remeber the exact card but it was a total blank, not an over didn't complete any draws, Hero bets $3.00 (I read the flop call for weak and figured another bet would take the pot down), Villian min raises to $6.00, Hero calls (Getting pretty good odds and still not sure I'm beat or not)

River (Pot - $17.05) - A, final board with no straight or flush draws possible

The villian hasn't really shown much strength in the hand so I actually debated pushing, which would be about a pot sized bet, representing the ace helped me. Thoughts on this play? After giving it thought I decided to check, hoping the ace would scare the villian into checking and we could just show it down. Villian makes a really weak bet of $4. Calling is probably okay here getting over 5-1 odds, folding wouldn't be horrible either. With a weak looking call on the flop, weak raise on the turn, and weak bet on the river, I don't really give the villian a big hand. Hero goes with his read and shoves?

[dms26]

when I see a min raise on the turn I usually take it as a sign of strength not weakness. I'd probably dump my hand there. With no reads this early I don't know that I try a big bluff here OOP. You really have no idea if villain is capable of folding a hand.

[Ricer98]

when I see a min raise on the turn I usually take it as a sign of strength not weakness. I'd probably dump my hand there. With no reads this early I don't know that I try a big bluff here OOP. You really have no idea if villain is capable of folding a hand.

I agree min raising is a used alot from weak players with big hands. When coupled with weakness shown on the flop I think the villian is just unsure or has a really weak hand in this case. Unless he hit a set with what ever the small turn card was I don't see how he has a big hand. Good point about not knowing if the villian will fold a hand like J10 for example. I had been playing rather loose aggressive and if I remember right I had taken atleast 2 pots off the villian by just firing the flop or double barrelling if his call looked weak. This lead me to believe he might have been calling/making a weak raise with a hand similar to mine, or worse, that "couldn't" call a big river bet. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[rdtedm]

I'd fold turn. As for the river, I would check/fold. Weak, but I don't see what he's going to fold here.

[addaminsane]

thats tuff, the min raise on the turn could also be viewed a sign of weakness just as easy.

[rdtedm]

thats tuff, the min raise on the turn could also be viewed a sign of weakness just as easy.

I don't see minraising being an overt sign of weakness much. What do people expect to accomplish from a minraise, scare the person into folding from such a big bet?

[ActionFalko]

Maybe I just limp preflop beeing in MP, if somebody calls the raise in Late I'm OOP, but that's just me.
I probably check the turn, keeping the pot small and hoping for a cheap showdown. But as played I fold to the minraise, as somebody explained before me. On the river the same. I also check/fold. His bet smells strongly like a suck bet.

[mtdesmoines]

Don't have the actual hand history so I'll try to summerize as best I can. Villian is farily new to the table only a few rotations in. 0.10/0.25 NL, 6 max, on Ultimate Bet.

6 Handed, effective stack sizes right around $25.00

UTG folds, hero raises to $0.85 with 8c9c, CO folds, BTN Calls, blinds fold

Flop (Pot - $2.05) - J,9,X, I don't think any flush draws were out, Hero bets $1.50, Villian calls quickly

Turn (Pot - $5.05) - X, don't remeber the exact card but it was a total blank, not an over didn't complete any draws, Hero bets $3.00 (I read the flop call for weak and figured another bet would take the pot down), Villian min raises to $6.00, Hero calls (Getting pretty good odds and still not sure I'm beat or not)

River (Pot - $17.05) - A, final board with no straight or flush draws possible

The villian hasn't really shown much strength in the hand so I actually debated pushing, which would be about a pot sized bet, representing the ace helped me. Thoughts on this play? After giving it thought I decided to check, hoping the ace would scare the villian into checking and we could just show it down. Villian makes a really weak bet of $4. Calling is probably okay here getting over 5-1 odds, folding wouldn't be horrible either. With a weak looking call on the flop, weak raise on the turn, and weak bet on the river, I don't really give the villian a big hand. Hero goes with his read and shoves?

Shoving is wrong. Villain has NOT shown weakness throughout the play of this hand.

[Ricer98]

Shoving is wrong. Villain has NOT shown weakness throughout the play of this hand.

My read on the turn was the villian was weak. Quick calls are so so often a sign of weakness. The villian knows he doesn't want to fold but can't even think about raising. That says weakness to me. So, I get an almost immediate call on the flop, and the turn is a complete blank. Now I get min raised after he just called the flop, I don't see this as strength because of his weak looking call on the flop. There is no way this card helped the villian unless it gave him a set with an underpair to the board. Which, I highly doubt since he called the flop. On the river, he bets $4 into a $17ish pot, thats not weak?

I did pay off the river bet in the hand instead of pushing. Villian showed AK for no pair no draw on the turn. I guess min raises aren't always strength now are they. Good read, bad results.

[VernonME]

Well before I read the results, pre-flop I would limp but you decided to raise.

Flop, I cant see how his "quick call" = weakness. Time tells are so unreliable imo. There wasnt any flush draws on the flop, thus villains call could be a number of hands that have you beat (KJ, AJ, J10, QJ, a set).

Turn was another blank, thus mabye keeping villains hand in ever better shape. His min raise does seem like strength. I would fold here and not pursue any deeper in this hand.

River, your check might have given villain the impression that you werent going to continue in this hand, so his weeeaak $4 bet was just to keep you in this hand, he obviously didnt want you to leave. Another fold here, I dont think I can ever shove here.

But yet again, you had yours reads and used them, only to lose to his AK.

After reading the results, villain played his hand pretty bad and sucked out, what can ya do. But overall, I dont think shoving the river is anywhere near EV+ unless you have a GREAT read on villain, but you obviously had the wrong read on the river when you felt he was weak, where he actually did hit his ace and lured you in.

[Craigdog]

At the very least I would say our villian has 10 10 or K J.... he flat calls the flop which is what bad players do with strong hands, he min raises the turn, this shows another classic sign of weak player with strong hand and he finally bets out on the river, In my opinion you should have folded your hand to the min re-raise. You only have a pair of 9's with an 8 kicker and playing a hand for 3/4 of a buy in.....

[Pot Odds RAC]

I already saw the results, but that was on the way to posting this reply.

Bluffing isn't just a single bet - Bluffing is about telling a story, it may last one or several hands, but it is a story that reaches the conclusion of a bulff. I just don't know what story we are trying to tell with the pattern of this hand.

[Ricer98]

Well before I read the results, pre-flop I would limp but you decided to raise.

Flop, I cant see how his "quick call" = weakness. Time tells are so unreliable imo. There wasnt any flush draws on the flop, thus villains call could be a number of hands that have you beat (KJ, AJ, J10, QJ, a set).

Turn was another blank, thus mabye keeping villains hand in ever better shape. His min raise does seem like strength. I would fold here and not pursue any deeper in this hand.

River, your check might have given villain the impression that you werent going to continue in this hand, so his weeeaak $4 bet was just to keep you in this hand, he obviously didnt want you to leave. Another fold here, I dont think I can ever shove here.

But yet again, you had yours reads and used them, only to lose to his AK.

After reading the results, villain played his hand pretty bad and sucked out, what can ya do. But overall, I dont think shoving the river is anywhere near EV+ unless you have a GREAT read on villain, but you obviously had the wrong read on the river when you felt he was weak, where he actually did hit his ace and lured you in.

You'd be suprised how often this tell is spot on. I think I allready explained this in a previous post, quick calls are usually a weak hand. When someone calls quick it tells me they like there hand enough to call and don't want to fold. But, they arn't even giving a seconds thought to raising. Most people that slow play big hands atleast stop and give thought to raising before just calling. Just think of your own play, do you ever insta flat call when slow playing a hand, probably not. I know I've even caught myself making quick calls with weak hands a few times.

I had the same read on the river as I had on the turn. There is no way I could ever possibly realize he hit his 6 outer and is all of a sudden making some form of a value bet.

[Ricer98]

I already saw the results, but that was on the way to posting this reply.

Bluffing isn't just a single bet - Bluffing is about telling a story, it may last one or several hands, but it is a story that reaches the conclusion of a bulff. I just don't know what story we are trying to tell with the pattern of this hand.

I guess the simplest answer is I'm trying to tell the villian I had a hand like A9, and made two pair on the river. Maybe even a hand like AK, I've seen plenty of players that aren't folding AK if they flop overs. In actuallity, I wasn't really worried about telling my own story. The story the villian was telling was not adding up in my head. I don't know why, I just didn't believe the guy for a stong hand here. The problem was though, I was afraid he could show up with a hand like J10 or 10's when I just called the river. Some type of hand that can't call a big river raise, especially once the ace hit. I still thought my 9's would be good enough given the pot odds at showdown. But, if I raised I could probably fold out the few weak hands that might take this line and are beating me.

[mtdesmoines]

I guess the simplest answer is I'm trying to tell the villian I had a hand like A9, and made two pair on the river.

But he wasn't listening.

I'm trying not to muscle around calling stations, either.