19 replies to this topic

[MarionSauce]

So this is the case, I am playing 7 insanely bad players, mostly fishes. This one to the left of me is the "dad" who lives there, meaning he is 55. he is SUPER annoying. Every hand he is like "you are dealer. burn one flip three. you need 3 chips to call or you can fold or raise", he is playing EVERY hand, and raising mad, with hands like Q8 PF. Everyone else is passive.Blinds are 2/4, you start off with 50 chips, I have about 80 right now. Annoying dad is chip leader with ~250-300I am in BB with 7c9cAnnoying Dad limpsGrandma limpsBuddy from High school limpsI checkFlop: 9d 6c 2cBuddy checksI bet 12 (into a pot of 16)A-Dad callsGrandma foldsBuddy foldsTurn: 7hI bet 14 (into a pot of 40)A-Dad callsRiver: JcI bet 20 (into a pot of 68)A-dad puts me all in for 30 more, I pretty much have to call, so I do.

[Jubba]

Bad players love nut flushes. You probably could have gone all-in on the flop and he would have called. You were going to lose this hand. If they are as bad as you say, then you were going to lose regardless, because they don't think about odds or anything. They just know that if one more club comes down then he has a lock hand...

[Absolute]

MarionSauce said:

So this is the case, I am playing 7 insanely bad players, mostly fishes. This one to the left of me is the "dad" who lives there, meaning he is 55. he is SUPER annoying. Every hand he is like "you are dealer. burn one flip three. you need 3 chips to call or you can fold or raise", he is playing EVERY hand, and raising mad, with hands like Q8 PF. Everyone else is passive.Blinds are 2/4, you start off with 50 chips, I have about 80 right now. Annoying dad is chip leader with ~250-300I am in BB with 7c9cAnnoying Dad limpsGrandma limpsBuddy from High school limpsI checkFlop: 9d 6c 2cBuddy checksI bet 12 (into a pot of 16)A-Dad callsGrandma foldsBuddy foldsTurn: 7hI bet 14 (into a pot of 40)A-Dad callsRiver: JcI bet 20 (into a pot of 68)A-dad puts me all in for 30 more, I pretty much have to call, so I do.

First things first, this tournament structure makes me cringe.Nice flop bet, I recall only a couple months ago your bets were pricing people in a lot, seems like things have gotten better. That's cool.Ouch, I should have held my tongue. Did you have a momentary lapse of reason on the turn? Did you want to let him odds to call with any drawing hand? Check/raise before you bet 1/4 the pot with two pair and a straight and flush draw on board! That's just............... adding to my cringing.Looks like he got that flush.You turned two pair, there is 40 in the pot and you have 40ish chips left.Easy push on the turn.If he folds, its a nice pot to pick up.If he calls, he more than likely has an overpair or is drawing.

[Absolute]

Jubba said:

Bad players love nut flushes. You probably could have gone all-in on the flop and he would have called. You were going to lose this hand. If they are as bad as you say, then you were going to lose regardless, because they don't think about odds or anything. They just know that if one more club comes down then he has a lock hand...

What a terrible away to approach this issue in a strategy forum.

[Jubba]

Absolute said:

What a terrible away to approach this issue in a strategy forum.

Lol yeah I guess. I just posted quick. I was pissed because the same thing just happened to me in a tournament. I pushed with top set and this guy called with the K-high flush draw and caught running cards for a straight. Flop: good bet.Turn: Horrid bet. Here is where you push. If he calls then he made the mistake and got lucky. You gave him 3.5:1 odds to call. River: you had to.

[tskillz187]

Am I seeing something wrong? Did she state that she lost the hand or is that just inferred? I think the turn bet is pretty bad if you put him on a flush draw, if you didn't then I think you are thinking you have 2-pair with a flush draw and that he is crippled and there isn't much that can help him. Now I think I read your post correctly, you hit the flush on the river which may have counterfeited your hand, I would have checked and hope he bluffed at it thinking you were scared of the flush, then called all in or gone all in myself. Or I would have gone all in on the river and not checked, I'm not a huge fan of the small bet. What did he have? If he calls with trash to your raises your little flush might be good anyways... again because of everyone else's posts and the fact that I'm a lil drunk I don't know if I read this hand correctly, but I think what I see is you going from 2 pair and "improving" to a flush. Without any knowledge of these players besides them being fish, who knows he might have just hit his straight with 8-10 and think he has you crippled.

[Jubba]

She had 2 pair and the old guy caught the flush.

[Absolute]

tskillz187 said:

Am I seeing something wrong? Did she state that she lost the hand or is that just inferred? I think the turn bet is pretty bad if you put him on a flush draw, if you didn't then I think you are thinking you have 2-pair with a flush draw and that he is crippled and there isn't much that can help him. Now I think I read your post correctly, you hit the flush on the river which may have counterfeited your hand, I would have checked and hope he bluffed at it thinking you were scared of the flush, then called all in or gone all in myself. Or I would have gone all in on the river and not checked, I'm not a huge fan of the small bet. What did he have? If he calls with trash to your raises your little flush might be good anyways... again because of everyone else's posts and the fact that I'm a lil drunk I don't know if I read this hand correctly, but I think what I see is you going from 2 pair and "improving" to a flush. Without any knowledge of these players besides them being fish, who knows he might have just hit his straight with 8-10 and think he has you crippled.

With the blinds like they are, there is absolutely no reason not to push on the turn and try to take it right there.

[Jubba]

I think I may have mis-read it. But the old man has a higher flush right? I didn't realize that she caught a flush too (I told you I read and posted quick). The old guy probably has A-xc right?

[tskillz187]

Absolute said:

tskillz187 said:

Am I seeing something wrong? Did she state that she lost the hand or is that just inferred? I think the turn bet is pretty bad if you put him on a flush draw, if you didn't then I think you are thinking you have 2-pair with a flush draw and that he is crippled and there isn't much that can help him. Now I think I read your post correctly, you hit the flush on the river which may have counterfeited your hand, I would have checked and hope he bluffed at it thinking you were scared of the flush, then called all in or gone all in myself. Or I would have gone all in on the river and not checked, I'm not a huge fan of the small bet. What did he have? If he calls with trash to your raises your little flush might be good anyways... again because of everyone else's posts and the fact that I'm a lil drunk I don't know if I read this hand correctly, but I think what I see is you going from 2 pair and "improving" to a flush. Without any knowledge of these players besides them being fish, who knows he might have just hit his straight with 8-10 and think he has you crippled.

With the blinds like they are, there is absolutely no reason not to push on the turn and try to take it right there.

not if this guy is calling with anything, why not put in a horribly small bet thinking that he has 0 or close to 0 outs, she has top two, and a flush draw, she puts in a small bet making it look like shes scared of the club. That is why I wouldn't think the turn bet is horrible if she thinks her club flush would be good, but if not then she should push, by putting in such a small bet shes leaving it open to get raised, protecting your hand against someone that might be drawing to 0 outs isn't profitable

[tskillz187]

the more i read her post the more i think that she shouldnt be scared and should have trapped him unless he played like kx suited... but he might have a real baby flush, she said he was raising like mad with garbage which leads me ot believe he would raise with Ax suited. So he either has a really strong starting hand and then shows nooooooo aggression throughout or got extremely lucky playing Kx suited. Either way I dont think her play is bad, but I think she should be happy she gets raised on the river, he could be playin 8/10 or he coulda been superrrrr slowplaying AA KK QQ JJ and think he just hit a monster when he spiked a set on the river, or better yet he could have been drawing to a lower flush the whole time. There is just too much crap a bad player could be playing to be scared with the 5th best hand here, especially when you make it seem like you are scared of the club.

[tskillz187]

i just think her reasoning is bad for the bets but i like how it played out. she shouldnt have bet so little on the turn unless she thought she was trapping him if the club fell, otherwise you should push on the turn marion. But you should be ecstatic hes pushing you all in on the river here, from what youve said about him I hafta think you are ahead, but then again the fact that you posted it here all bummed out means you musta lost the pot, but still you will win against a random fish hand with that board more often than not

[wrto4556]

Everything was perfect until the river. Fold to his raise. I know...but he has you beat.

[MarionSauce]

Yeah thanks for all the replies guys - I really appreciate it. He had A4c, which means he was fishing the whole way. I didn't think he had Ax because I saw him raise preflop with any face card, and he limped here. It seemed like the ONLY hands he limped were low pockets so I thought maybe he caught some kind of set, or had complete garbage and caught two pair. I hope you guys understand how hard it is for me to read someone which such erratic play. I completely agree that perhaps I should have pushed on the turn, it was kind of like "oh hey I probably have this guy beat either way, if I keep my two pair, hit the boat or flush so I want him to stay" Clearly a BIG mistake by me, he might have called anyway most likely, he NEVER folds.

[tskillz187]

wrto4556 said:

Everything was perfect until the river. Fold to his raise. I know...but he has you beat.

betting less than half the pot on the turn is perfect? This is a can't fold situation,maybe if she hadnt put in the river bet and he went all in she could fold, but again he could be playing anything according to her and she set herself up for the river bet by the weak turn bet, no way she can fold

[MarionSauce]

Oh, and when this hand happened it was 4 handed. So you can imagine why I didn't think he had A4c if he didn't raise PF.

[Absolute]

wrto4556 said:

Everything was perfect until the river. Fold to his raise. I know...but he has you beat.

This just isn't true Chris.Go back and notice the structure and then her chip stack relative to the structure, and then the pot size on the turn relative to her chip stack relative to the structure.It's an easy push on the turn. He probably calls and she gets busted, but it is absolutely the correct and long-term winning move.No reason not to pick up 30 chip pots when the blinds are 2-4 and you have 50 chips.

[RISEorFall]

MarionSauce said:

I hope you guys understand how hard it is for me to read someone which such erratic play.

I play with a guy just the opposite of this guy you're playing against (therefore, exact opposite strategy against him may work). The guy I play with never, and I mean never thinks he has the best hand when he gets raised or bet at. He can have the second nuts and debate folding to a decent sized bet for like 20 minutes. I can't watch his mannerisms and tells because he's never sure of his hand. I have to follow his betting patterns more often than not. And I usually take a good amount of his money, unless he ends up getting very lucky. So for this guy who won't fold, don't rely on his betting patterns as much. I'm not saying don't use them at all, but maybe try and look for more physical tells. If his eyes are scanning the board, looking back and forth, he's probably on a draw. If he's staring at the board he might've made a pair or two pair. Try and pick up some of these phsyical tells and use them with his betting pattern and you should do much better against him.