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my thoughts on kurt's final hand


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:19 PM

First of all, I need to make sure that the following is correct? Well Kurt is out sadly He went out on the river this is the hand as he relayed it to me on the phone. J-10 BB - 2 Limpers Flop comes Q - K - A Rainbow Kurt - Checks MP - Checks MP1 - Bet to 1,200 Kurt and MP call Turn is another Ace Kurt - Checks MP - Checks MP1 - Bet to 3,500 Kurt figures him for trip Aces and pushes all-in for 16,500 Guy calls and turns over A-9 River is a K, Guy wins and Kurt is out of the tournament. Not a huge deal really. Actually I'm a little surprised that it's garnered so much attention. This is how I would have played the turn though: Since I just called on the flop with the hand I'm just going to call on the turn rather than go all in. I don't consider the Ace a "GIN card" at all. It's a potentially horrible card as there is no valid reason to think that the limpers couldn't have A-K, A-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q. Seriously, people limp strong all the time. Now, even if I thought I had my opponent beat I would still just call. Why? Well because if I KNEW my opponent had an ACE but wasn't full yet, I could avoid going broke if the river comes an A, K, or a Q by just calling. Playing it my way he would likely still have 13,000 left since I doubt he could call on a board of A A K K Q. Having said that, I don't think Kurt made a "mistake" at all. If it was a cash game he got his money in good and got unlucky, but in a tournament where survival is so important, I would have waited to see a safe river card before going all in.
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#2 augmented

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:28 PM

yay. you all happy now?
Q. What do a fence, an autistic korean, and a stop sign have in common?

A. I'm all in.

#3 Scott3705

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:29 PM

Guaranteed this will turn into another 10 page thread.

#4 Guest_XXEddie_*

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:31 PM

Scott3705 said:

Guaranteed this will turn into another 10 page thread.
i say 15 just cause DN started it....way to go Daniel!!!

#5 Suited_Up

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:35 PM

I'm sure it will drag out also.I've done all the explaining i possibly can though.Thanks for the thoughts though Daniel. All I can really say to respond though, Is that when that Ace fell and we both checked to him again, he seemed pretty confused by it. Genuinely didn't seem like he had the full house hand. I couldn't really tell you if he had a weak ace or one of the other cards, but I was fairly sure it wasn't AK or AQ. Once we checked he kinda shot a look. Like what the heck did you call with if that didn't help your hand type of deal. So I figured he was weak one way or another.... So I took a shot figuring I had the best hand. Oh well.
-Kurt

#6 Vertigo

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:36 PM

Good answer DN. Is that not exactly what Smash said too? And everyone was all over him for that...

#7 Suited_Up

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:38 PM

Vertigo said:

Good answer DN. Is that not exactly what Smash said too? And everyone was all over him for that...
Maybe because DN never called me a moron for my play and blah blah type of comments? He just said he would have made that play. I still don't mind mine though.
-Kurt

#8 wolfman50

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:41 PM

although daniel said that he would've played the hand a particular way he also said that suited up's play was not a mistake at all. he did what he thought was best and i think that suited up's play was fine. daniel was just giving his 2 cents on the issue though, no need for this to re-open a flame war.

#9 wrto4556

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:51 PM

Yes, yall are right. There is more than one way to play the hand. But one is better than the other.
back for kramit

#10 akishore

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:52 PM

wolfman50 said:

although daniel said that he would've played the hand a particular play he also said that suited up's play was not a mistake at all. he did what he thought was best and i think that suited up's play was fine. daniel was just giving his 2 cents on the issue though, no need for this to re-open a flame war.


#11 Suited_Up

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:54 PM

Here... Lets discuss another hand I came across in Vegas and see what everyone thinks of it.$200 max NL table. 1/2 blinds.I am in late position with :clubsa: :clubsk: Fold, fold, Limp, Fold, Raise to $12 (was pretty standard), Caller...I just call the $12 and limper calls as well.Flop: :clubs9: :diamondsk: :clubs10: EP Limper bets $15 PF Raiser makes it $70MP folds.I Move in for $172 total. With TPTK and nut flush draw.EP bettor thinks awhile and makes the call for over $150 more.Raiser is beside himself trying to figure out what we have, and very grudgingly folds his hand.Caller turns over :spades9: :spades10: for 2 pair. I figured I might be behind and needed a club anyway, but just a little shocked to see it was bottom 2 pair.Turn blanks River is the :spadesk: Folder had AK as well, and instead of a club, I hit the case King and won a pot of $459. The folder was pretty mad to say the least :)I cashed out soon thereafter. Yay for NL.
-Kurt

#12 wrto4556

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:55 PM

It shouldn't become a flamewar....I don't know what to say. There was a better way to play the hand. Call the turn. Noones saying kurt made a bad play. We are saying there was a better option. It's just poker freaks that have to critique every goddamn hand possible. No offense.
back for kramit

#13 wrto4556

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:57 PM

That hand was played good. You got your money in as a favorite. But that was a cash game, right?
back for kramit

#14 Suited_Up

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:58 PM

wrto4556 said:

That hand was played good. You got your money in as a favorite. But that was a cash game, right?
Yeah it was. And I do see the difference, lol. I just figured he was weak on the tourney hand, and wanted to make the strong play. Didn't work out, maybe I'll learn from it, lol.
-Kurt

#15 Vertigo

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:58 PM

Suited_Up said:

Vertigo said:

Good answer DN. Is that not exactly what Smash said too? And everyone was all over him for that...
Maybe because DN never called me a moron for my play and blah blah type of comments? He just said he would have made that play. I still don't mind mine though.
I'm sorry, I forgot about the moron parts. And I never said I disagreed with your play either. I liked your play too, although I'm not sure I would have checked both the flop and turn. Just a personal thing though, because I hate slowplaying because it always bites me in the ass. As for Daniel's response, I do like the way he put it though. That might have been the best way to play it, because even if the K didn't hit on the river, that guy still might of thought you were just taking a stab with a big bet on the river, and likely called with trips, possibly thinking you just had 2 pair or something. Anyways, sucks you got sucked out like that but I hope you had a great time and enjoyed some valuable experience!

#16 gobears

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:00 AM

Suited_Up said:

Here... Lets discuss another hand I came across in Vegas and see what everyone thinks of it.$200 max NL table. 1/2 blinds.I am in late position with :clubsa: :clubsk: Fold, fold, Limp, Fold, Raise to $12 (was pretty standard), Caller...I just call the $12 and limper calls as well.Flop: :clubs9: :diamondsk: :clubs10: EP Limper bets $15 PF Raiser makes it $70MP folds.I Move in for $172 total. With TPTK and nut flush draw.EP bettor thinks awhile and makes the call for over $150 more.Raiser is beside himself trying to figure out what we have, and very grudgingly folds his hand.Caller turns over :spades9: :spades10: for 2 pair. I figured I might be behind and needed a club anyway, but just a little shocked to see it was bottom 2 pair.Turn blanks River is the :spadesk: Folder had AK as well, and instead of a club, I hit the case King and won a pot of $459. The folder was pretty mad to say the least :)I cashed out soon thereafter. Yay for NL.
Very nicely played! - surprised that EP called you with a raise and a re-raise after his initial bet with only bottom 2 pair. Plus he was in the middle without last action.Sounds pretty loose at the tables!
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#17 wolfman50

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:02 AM

wrto4556 said:

It shouldn't become a flamewar....I don't know what to say. There was a better way to play the hand. Call the turn. Noones saying kurt made a bad play. We are saying there was a better option. It's just poker freaks that have to critique every censored hand possible. No offense.
i agree, i'm just saying there are different ways to play it and i dont think his play was bad. i was just saying that there was no need for those "poker freaks" to come out and critique like they have for the previous ten page threads for the same exact subject. the hand is over, it's been talked about more than enough, there's no reason for anyone to get into arguments about this hand anymore IMO.

#18 Suited_Up

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:02 AM

Your statement there did bring up a point that hasn't really been mentioned. Well it seems like you kinda meant it....Maybe a bet on the turn card would be better than either one. And if I had more time to think, maybe I would have done that, but things happen fast, and if I take too long to really think about that card, it makes my hand more obvious, so I checked to see what happened behind me, and gave me a little more time to decide what to do. But a bet might have worked best, gives me the lead in the hand, he may very well flat call, and then I see the river for my price. Eh, I dunno... all 3 could have worked, honestly... he was close to folding.
-Kurt

#19 Suited_Up

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 12:05 AM

gobears said:

Very nicely played! - surprised that EP called you with a raise and a re-raise after his initial bet with only bottom 2 pair. Plus he was in the middle without last action.Sounds pretty loose at the tables!
Yeah, it was just loose enough. The guy who called had already rebought for 200 twice. So he was completely too loose. He'd call almost any bet. Even one of the players who was playing halfways decent kept calling "just to see" :club:
-Kurt

#20 Diabolical

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 03:01 AM

i'd say the reason it went on so long is that you didn't want to acknowledge the alternative. If you noticed the thread about DN's last hand entitled "What Happened", it wasn't very long at all cause he wasn't on there posting about how he made the right play and all of you who don't agree are flat out wrongOnce DN chimes in about your hand, you deflated!!! :naughty: Dam your stubborn!!! If you would still argue your point even though DN disagreed with you, i would see that you had REAL convictions about how you played and thus would have some respect for the way your "defending" yourself.(you still may have those strong feelings but your keeping them under your hat now)I was also suspecting that you wanted to have one of the longest threads on this site devoted to talkin about you (and not smash for a change)There,.........i said it.....hows your mom?Some of these FCPers know what there talkin about. Listen :shhh: and quit yappin :dance: so much. I saw you call people names also. So don't point your finger at "all" those who disagreed with you as flamers. Some were trying to help you.I'm tryin to see your point of view,.......................................i jus can't get my head that far up my ass!!




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