10 replies to this topic

[monix]

UTG was a TAG, and the SB was a bad loose player. The SB had doubled up when he called an early position raise, and then got it all-in with QJs on a Q high flop against AQ...he got a J on the river.

I don't need any comments on the pre-flop call - I'll often raise here, but with deep stacks, and a TAG raising UTG, I'll just call with position and see what the flop brings.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t4440
UTG+1: t2410
MP1: t10185
MP2: t4880
MP3: t5510
CO: t5210
Hero: t6050
SB: t6550
BB: t5670

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with Q Q
UTG raises to t80, 5 folds, Hero calls t80 (pot was t110), SB raises to t300, BB folds, UTG calls t220 (pot was t480), Hero calls t220 (pot was t700).

Flop: 9 5 7 (t920, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t800, SB raises all-in t6250, UTG folds, HERO??

[PhilBluff]

UTG was a TAG, and the SB was a bad loose player. The SB had doubled up when he called an early position raise, and then got it all-in with QJs on a Q high flop against AQ...he got a J on the river.

I don't need any comments on the pre-flop call - I'll often raise here, but with deep stacks, and a TAG raising UTG, I'll just call with position and see what the flop brings.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t4440
UTG+1: t2410
MP1: t10185
MP2: t4880
MP3: t5510
CO: t5210
Hero: t6050
SB: t6550
BB: t5670

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with Q Q
UTG raises to t80, 5 folds, Hero calls t80 (pot was t110), SB raises to t300, BB folds, UTG calls t220 (pot was t480), Hero calls t220 (pot was t700).

Flop: 9 5 7 (t920, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t800, SB raises all-in t6250, UTG folds, HERO??

Well this is my first time responding to one of these, so lets see how I do. UTG raise and flop check/fold makes me feel his range of AK-AJ is the 4x standard raise there. SB raise then wayyyyyyy over the top raise would make me think his range is 1010-AA. You said he overplayed TP/WK before so I have to believe he has at least a PP, maybe AK but I doubt it since the huge over the top bet. So I would put him on AA or KK.

Now to you, you fold cause its way too early to be in a situation for all of your stack hoping that your ahead with your QQ. Lots of time to play with it being SS and 10/20

[XXEddie]

so.....SB has doubled up....and still only has 6500 to start the hand? Not really repsecting his game, Im almost positive this is an overpair though... I think we can wait for a better spot... right?

[monix]

Well this is my first time responding to one of these, so lets see how I do. UTG raise and flop check/fold makes me feel his range of AK-AJ is the 4x standard raise there. SB raise then wayyyyyyy over the top raise would make me think his range is 1010-AA. You said he overplayed TP/WK before so I have to believe he has at least a PP, maybe AK but I doubt it since the huge over the top bet. So I would put him on AA or KK.

Now to you, you fold cause its way too early to be in a situation for all of your stack hoping that your ahead with your QQ. Lots of time to play with it being SS and 10/20

Welcome to the tournament strategy forum, and a very good first effort!!

[monix]

so.....SB has doubled up....and still only has 6500 to start the hand?

Like I said - he was loose bad...this was the 35th hand we had played together, and he was 37/2 and bled down to 3200 before the aforementioned double-up..

[Cappy37]

Like I said - he was loose bad...this was the 35th hand we had played together, and he was 37/2 and bled down to 3200 before the aforementioned double-up..

This one is close, too.. That original raise from the small blind means one of two things: Impossible strength (AA KK QQ), or a pair too large to see a 3 way flop with without reverting to set mining. I'd put his range from 88-AA here.. We beat 8/T/J, lose to A/K/9, and tie Q (unlikely).

I do not see him making this play with 77 or 66, and especially not with a big ace. It's a dry 9 hi, non connecting board. It's pretty safe to say he's not on any kind of straight draw, and something we-todd-did like A9 or *anything* that makes 2 pair is also out. If you are right, he's dead to 2 outs, if you are wrong, you are dead to two outs. Doesn't get more WA/WB then that, eh?

You've commited about 17% of your chips, you can certainly get away from this. Hard to swallow we might have been playing QQ for set value. But even a total nit knows he isn't losing 2 players with that PF raise or the flop shove. I *really* hate to fold this, this *is* the situation we were looking for to make the withdrawl from Mr. ATM. The only saving grace here is there is no real draws, and unless he has wet dreams involving Ace-Ten, we really are flipping a coin over him having TT JJ or AA KK 99. Yikes. I think a nit shoves tens or jacks a little harder PF facing early heat, this is the main reason I will lean toward fold.

You snap called didn't you? Don't blame yourself, in the heat of the moment and not in the confines of the strat forum, I do too

[monix]

You snap called didn't you? Don't blame yourself, in the heat of the moment and not in the confines of the strat forum, I do too

I folded and he did not show. I then watched him continue to make ridiculous plays with marginal holdings (like the QJ hand in the OP) until the table broke, and I wondered if I missed an opportunity for an early double-up...

edit ...I almost called, but this is an example of a hand where I promised myself to stop going broke when I have a deep stack with TPTK or an overpair...

[iggymcfly]

I think this is a good fold for two reasons:

1. He check-raised with the betting lead.
That looks very suspicious to me as if he has a huge hand and doesn't know what to do with it. That just screams AA or a set.

2. He has a PFR of 2.
For someone who plays that passive preflop to reraise a tight UTG raiser, it almost has to be a big hand. I'm thinking AA, KK only there.

Now either one of those reasons on their own wouldn't be enough to lay this down as he seems to be playing erratically and we have to give his range a pretty wide margin for error. However, with both actions strongly representing strength, I think this is a great spot to get away. I'm guessing we'll see AA about 45% of the time here with KK and a set combining for another 30% or so. Occasionally, he'll be making this play with a worse overpair or even some completely random hand like AK or T8s but overall we're behind enough that we have to fold.

[armen13]

I think this was a good laydown. Even after you had seen him make the play with QJ, you have to give him some credit here, and you are just too deep stacked and it is just too early for a "brave" call. In retrospect, it may seem like a lost opportunity, but that is after you saw him making horrible plays in later hands. If he bluffed (or more likely had no clue) then good for him, give him the pot and be on the lookout for an opportunity to take all his chips before the others at the table take it.

[Cappy37]

I folded and he did not show. I then watched him continue to make ridiculous plays with marginal holdings (like the QJ hand in the OP) until the table broke, and I wondered if I missed an opportunity for an early double-up...

edit ...I almost called, but this is an example of a hand where I promised myself to stop going broke when I have a deep stack with TPTK or an overpair...

That is the worst: when you have no information and about 10 hands later you are convinced he's wearing a bike helmet and clicking buttons at random. Tournaments are all about being rewarded for making the right play, not winning each individual pot. I think the possibility of going broke here facing that much apparent strength in a deep stack tourney makes this a tough-yet-correct fold. He has Kings if you call and Ace-rag if you fold, obv.

[eYank]

That is the worst: when you have no information and about 10 hands later you are convinced he's wearing a bike helmet and clicking buttons at random. Tournaments are all about being rewarded for making the right play, not winning each individual pot. I think the possibility of going broke here facing that much apparent strength in a deep stack tourney makes this a tough-yet-correct fold. He has Kings if you call and Ace-rag if you fold, obv.

Id say its the right play
You have to give him credit, he played like he has a monster and from the reads you had at the time theres no way you can put your tournament life on the line so early