3 replies to this topic

[Koroshiya]

RE: this article from Cardplayer.http://www.cardplaye...7af8ffdcd071b7a (snip) It depends on the hand and the situation. For instance, my friend Jake was in the BB a $1-$2 blinds NL game with the AcKd. Every single player limped in preflop! He was pretty sure that he had the best hand, so he threw in a $25 raise. He still got four callers! Then, the flop came J-9-2, missing him completely. He ended up checking and folding, and lamented the fact that he wasted $25. This is where playing "by the book" causes problems at loose on-line tables. The traditional wisdom is to raise w/ AK to thin the field. The problem is in most on-line games a bet or a raise does not thin the field, and it puts everyone on notice that you probably have AK, or at least heavy overcards of some sort. So if the flop comes with low rags, you are facing a full field who can be sure you didn't hit anything. And if you do hit something, they are more likely to fold after your next bet knowing you probably do have a big over-pair or better. You might not play like this in a WPT final, but I prefer to limp in with a good pocket like AA, AK or KK, etc. in a game where everyone calls everything. Then if I miss the flop, I'm out cheap. If I hit a strong hand most of the maniacs playing weaker hands will be more confident that their pair of 4s, or whatever, is good to go. It works for me more often than not and works along with my feeling that the biggest pots I win in low stakes on-line games come from "sneaking" in with a good hand and letting someone with the 2nd or 3rd best hand drive the betting. They gain confidence by the time they hit the river and are convinced they have the best hand. This would never work with top level players, but that is not what I am up against day-to-day. Any thoughts?Koroshiya

[Devilkin]

I agree that it can be difficult to play against these kinds of players, but you have to realize that AK is a strong starting hand, and definitely +EV.Yes, he lost $25. If he can't afford this, he shouldn't be playing. But you have to keep in mind that you WANT players in the hand. Raising does two things:1. It narrows the field. Even if one player is knocked out, thats an improvement on my chances.2. Its a value type bet - I have a very good starting hand, and more times than not, Im going to win with it.Don't let a few losses with AKo stop you from playing it strongly. You have to realize that if you play it correctly, it will make you money in the long run, but short term there will be hands like this.Callers are a good thing, especially when the A and K start appearing, and you take down a 5x$25 pot.Also, how the heck are they going to put you on AK? If you bet AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ . . . whatever strong hand almost identically, they can't put you on everything, and will have to suspect you have a high PP every time. Don't let your betting give off anything about your hand except strength.Dev

[Wily]

Koroshiya said:

RE: this article from Cardplayer.http://www.cardplaye...7af8ffdcd071b7a (snip) It depends on the hand and the situation. For instance, my friend Jake was in the BB a $1-$2 blinds NL game with the AcKd. Every single player limped in preflop! He was pretty sure that he had the best hand, so he threw in a $25 raise. He still got four callers! Then, the flop came J-9-2, missing him completely. He ended up checking and folding, and lamented the fact that he wasted $25. This is where playing "by the book" causes problems at loose on-line tables. The traditional wisdom is to raise w/ AK to thin the field. The problem is in most on-line games a bet or a raise does not thin the field, and it puts everyone on notice that you probably have AK, or at least heavy overcards of some sort. So if the flop comes with low rags, you are facing a full field who can be sure you didn't hit anything. And if you do hit something, they are more likely to fold after your next bet knowing you probably do have a big over-pair or better. You might not play like this in a WPT final, but I prefer to limp in with a good pocket like AA, AK or KK, etc. in a game where everyone calls everything. Then if I miss the flop, I'm out cheap. If I hit a strong hand most of the maniacs playing weaker hands will be more confident that their pair of 4s, or whatever, is good to go. It works for me more often than not and works along with my feeling that the biggest pots I win in low stakes on-line games come from "sneaking" in with a good hand and letting someone with the 2nd or 3rd best hand drive the betting. They gain confidence by the time they hit the river and are convinced they have the best hand. This would never work with top level players, but that is not what I am up against day-to-day. Any thoughts?Koroshiya

Well, my main thought is, what is he doing raising $25 preflop without AA or KK?! The fact that everyone called is a bit crazy too, but he should've raised about $10 there. That usually thins the field by a few players. The point of raising PF with AK or AQ is not necessarily to win a big pot every hand , but to increase to pot size and commitment from each other player, so if you do hit you can extract a lot more from them. Sure, 2/3 of the time with two big overcards you'll miss the flop, and be forced to fold to a big bet. You can counteract this by putting in a fair sized bet on flops where you miss but have some draws other than just 2 overcards, and taking it down right there (especially if the flop comes with one or more cards above 10). Also, when you do hit an ace or king, those players with weaker aces and kings who are calling your raises incorrectly will pay you off massively.But on the BB there, I would only raise $25 with AA or KK, with the intention of pushing all in on a good flop. With AK, it's simply a bad, pot-committing size raise.

[Koroshiya]

Wily said:

Well, my main thought is, what is he doing raising $25 preflop without AA or KK?! ....But on the BB there, I would only raise $25 with AA or KK, with the intention of pushing all in on a good flop. With AK, it's simply a bad, pot-committing size raise.

This is my feeling as well. If you are playing people who will call just about any bet or raise, then I prefer to not bet or raise with only AK, or perhaps to raise just a little. In my view AK is not a hand, it is only a potential hand. And like you said, 2/3 of the time that AK will come to nothing on the flop.Some people commit too much money PF when they see AK in an NL game where you will still get called by a wide variety of pocket cards. Then to make matters worse, they will bet after the flop comes something like Q87, because they don't want to back off the PF raise, while anyone with a Q, an 8 ,or an 7 is ahead at that point. Even someone calling with 5-6, 9-10 or J-10 has more outs than the AK. There are just a lot of way AK will not work out. At least with AA or KK you actually have something to work with no matter what the flop looks like.Koroshiya