32 replies to this topic

[Snamuh]

Villain is 22.7/11.4/2.45 over a few hundred hands. No idea what to do as it's a pretty dangerous board.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($24.25)
Hero ($50)
UTG+1 ($72.75)
MP1 ($48.25)
MP2 ($23.70)
MP3 ($94.55)
CO ($11.10)
Button ($55.25)
SB ($46.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, MP1 calls $2, 5 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) Q, 9, J (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, MP1 raises to $10, BB folds, Hero?

[Lavitz]

This is JQ or K10 a lot. J9s and Q9s are also in his range. Only hands you beat are QK, AQ and 10x and I think he cold calls a hand like 10J or 10x. I'm leaning towards a fold.

Blah, just noticed full ring. Not sure if K10 is in his range then. I still think JQ is. 99 also becomes a possibility. I still like folding. We beat QK and AQ. Trying to go to river cheaply might be a good idea as well. He's never bluffing here though for sure.

[sabes99]

i think i would just call and see what happens...you might develop a better read on the turn, you have a 10 for an almost guaranteed out, and obv the kings could be good as he might just have a Q and be raising to find out where he is at

i could probably make cases for calling, re-raising, or folding, but i think the call is the best choice

[mtdesmoines]

Villain is 22.7/11.4/2.45 over a few hundred hands. No idea what to do as it's a pretty dangerous board.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($24.25)
Hero ($50)
UTG+1 ($72.75)
MP1 ($48.25)
MP2 ($23.70)
MP3 ($94.55)
CO ($11.10)
Button ($55.25)
SB ($46.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, MP1 calls $2, 5 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) Q, 9, J (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, MP1 raises to $10, BB folds, Hero?

Barring the three-outer of a T, I don't see your hand improving in ways that you can get it all in on this board. And I think that's where this hand is headed. I fold.

[nomad_monad]

reraise commits you when you could be drawing thin.

call and you can't donk the turn (in case he's in there with JTs/T9s/TT) without committing yourself if he has two-pair/set. that means you check and even drawing hands here will toss a nice bet at you that you can't really call. there is no guarantee that even AQ/KQ will not fire again on the turn as they may interpret the flat call as you drawing with something like TT.

folding sucks but it is the least bad out of 3 bad options. stack sizes really constrain us here.

[NoBBiR]

No way. Calling only puts $12 of our $50 stack in and no way commits us. I def. call and see what he wants to do on the turn. I hate being OOP but I'm not throwing away Kings just because he made a little bit more than a minraise. Call and reevaluate.

I also am for raising a bit more UTG with Kings in a full ring. Probably more like 5x or 6x.

[danc1984]

I do not like the call and reevaluate the turn line primarily because we are out of position. What happens? We call the raise, the turn comes a blank, we check, he bets 3/4 of the pot and we fold? Just mucking the KK seems weak here but I think we are behind more than we are ahead and we do not have much invested. I fold.

[nomad_monad]

No way. Calling only puts $12 of our $50 stack in and no way commits us. I def. call and see what he wants to do on the turn. I hate being OOP but I'm not throwing away Kings just because he made a little bit more than a minraise. Call and reevaluate.

I also am for raising a bit more UTG with Kings in a full ring. Probably more like 5x or 6x.

Read above again - never said calling the flop raise commits us. Raising on the flop, donking the turn or calling the turn does.

After we come in for a raise UTG and flat call the villain's raise, he's not going to be scared often enough into checking behind on the turn. Very few cards come on the turn that make us feel better about our hand facing another bet, and very few cards come that make villain feel worse about his hand (in fact, they are mostly the same cards, which worsens the situation). A call here and we are just paying more $ to fold on the turn most of the time. Or I guess we could call the likely turn bet, but then we are pretty much praying that villain doesn't push the river. Praying only works for Jerry Yang.

In position, call and re-evaluate. OOP, no.

[Jennings7]

Fold most of the time here. That board would scare him as much as it does you if he has something like AQ

[BrandonPL]

Praying only works for Jerry Yang.

And Chris Moneymaker, Jamie Gold, ...

[joethepro]

this is a hand that you definitely need to have some read on the player. possible hands are AQ, JT. KT, 99, JJ, QQ, T8, KK, AA. The four hands that aren't as likely are T8 (preflop cold call in mid position) KT (again probably pretty loose), KK and AA (would probably reraise since he was MP1).

this leaves the hands of AQ, JT, 99, JJ and QQ and i think hitting trips are a lot less likely than AQ or JT. so yah, you still have a chance at winning, although they still have tons of outs (so even if everything is perfect you could still lose and they are getting nice implied odds). if i thought this was a good player i would give up on the hand pretty fast b/c i'll get punished being OOP by a good player. If it was a medicore player, I would call the bet and bet out 10-15 regardless of what came on the turn and give up if reraised and hope for a fold (probably not likely).

if they go all in on the river for your last 25, it's probably a fold. if they missed their draw, hopefully they just check down their cards. if they have AQ hopefully they just check down their cards. if it's a small bet, you'd probably need to call it. this is why you have to peg this guy as medicore and know how he would play the river for you to make the flop call.

or you could just wait for a better spot and fold regardless haha.

[Money022]

i think i would just call and see what happens...

What's the reasoning behind calling though? The only card that makes you feel warm and fuzzy is a T. Anything else either makes it worse or does nothing to change your standing in the hand. Being out of position I probably just fold and save yourself the chips for the next big hand.

[SilentButDeadly3]

I don't think this is QJ/Q9/J9, I think those hands re-raise more to protect than 2.5x to protect their hand

I honestly think the only hand that makes sense that has us beat is KT or possibly T8s. I think that this is a hand like AQ/KQ feeling out where he's at or pair and a straight draw a lot of the time like QT or JT.

I could be very wrong, but most people would re-raise more to protect Top and Bottom, Bottom Two or Top 2 on that board.

[NoBBiR]

If you're folding this flop against what is essentially a minraise, you should not have c-bet. Folding after C-betting just because you got some resistance is very, very weak in my opinion. You have no idea where you're at in the hand by just folding and you could be losing a lot of value.

This is Q10, AJ, AQ, Q8, KQ A LOT. He's LAG too, why would you open fold?

[danc1984]

The only hands that we beat that the villain might do this with are TJ, 9T or TQ. The rest of his range has us beaten. In this hand we are either just ahead of the pair+oesd or way behind to a set or flopped straight, IMO. Two pair is also obviously a distinct possibility. Either way I still think being oop makes this a fold. In position you could call his raise, take a look at a turn card and see how he reacts to it. However, this is not possible oop.

To those saying call the raise and reevaluate the turn, what is your planned action on the turn if a blank comes off? Are you checking? This is a massive sign of weakness, inviting him to make a large bet and we are really no more certain about the strength of his hand. I just think calling on the flop here is horrible.

[tskillz187]

I guess I'm in the minority here. 0 people thus far. I reraise pretty big to like $30-35, and get it in on turn. Only hands that crush us are K10 and 810. Against sets we have 6 outs, against two pair hands we have 9 then 12.

If he has a 910,10J,Q10 combo hand we have him in bad shape, because his 2pr outs make us straights and we hold 2 of his straight outs. Not to mention if he spikes the K we have a boat redraw. His raise looks to me like he has a combo draw and that he is trying to take control of the potsize with it. His PT stats suggest that he would play these combo hands similar to this.

[sabes99]

What's the reasoning behind calling though? The only card that makes you feel warm and fuzzy is a T. Anything else either makes it worse or does nothing to change your standing in the hand. Being out of position I probably just fold and save yourself the chips for the next big hand.

folding would be incorrect on all counts imo, we are priced in even if he turned over a set, considering we'd have 6 outs guaranteed, and esp when you factor in the other hands he could have...Q-10, J-10, 10-9 suited are all hands we beat, and against a two pair hand we are not in bad shape

however, because we can be an underdog often on a flop like this, raising is a little too risky, although it's the second-best play here i think...folding is just giving up too much value

really, none of the options here are truly likeable, but calling appears better than folding or raising here imo because we are getting too big an overlay to fold, but we are an underdog often enough that raising probably isn't +EV either

[nomad_monad]

If you're folding this flop against what is essentially a minraise, you should not have c-bet.

Huh? Would you cbet here with total air? Of course you would. Would you fold if minraised? OOP, almost certainly. Obviously our hand has more value than air, but calling here to most likely fold the turn runs the value of our hand in the opposite direction. I'd rather see a raise here than a call.
Leading also charges villain if he's drawing.

Folding after C-betting just because you got some resistance is very, very weak in my opinion. You have no idea where you're at in the hand by just folding and you could be losing a lot of value.

Why would we have a better idea of where we are in the hand after calling here? I still haven't seen or heard a reason why villain doesn't bet again most of the time.
Imagine if you're villain - what message is hero sending by flat calling the raise? "Hi, I'm either drawing, or I have a hand I'm not interested in playing for stacks with." Would you then check behind on the turn?
There's no hand that makes sense for hero to be trapping with here so most of the time the call won't cause the villain to slow down. Even if he has AQ/KQ, if he's going to forsake pot control by raising us with AQ/KQ on this flop, then I don't see why he would change gears on the turn if all we do is call.

This is Q10, AJ, AQ, Q8, KQ A LOT. He's LAG too, why would you open fold?

I haven't played full ring in a while, but I don't seem to remember 22.7/11.4/2.45 indicating a LAG player. Could be wrong tho.

I guess I'm in the minority here. 0 people thus far. I reraise pretty big to like $30-35, and get it in on turn. Only hands that crush us are K10 and 810. Against sets we have 6 outs, against two pair hands we have 9 then 12.

If he has a 910,10J,Q10 combo hand we have him in bad shape, because his 2pr outs make us straights and we hold 2 of his straight outs. Not to mention if he spikes the K we have a boat redraw. His raise looks to me like he has a combo draw and that he is trying to take control of the potsize with it. His PT stats suggest that he would play these combo hands similar to this.

Thought about that. But I think what led me to favor folding is that most of the value from raising here comes from brutalizing villain when he has the combo draw, which I'm not sure a full ring player running 22.7/11.4/2.45 who calls an UTG raise from MP1/UTG+2 has often enough to make up for the times we push into QJ/99 as a 2-1 dog (over 2 cards).

[shinzilla]

If you're folding this flop against what is essentially a minraise, you should not have c-bet. Folding after C-betting just because you got some resistance is very, very weak in my opinion. You have no idea where you're at in the hand by just folding and you could be losing a lot of value.

This is Q10, AJ, AQ, Q8, KQ A LOT. He's LAG too, why would you open fold?

See this? This is good advice. Folding the flop would be horrible. Calling and reevaluating the turn is by far the best play.

... and since when did this become the weak/tight forum? I've seen so much of this type of this advice in the forum recently. People who fold to a flop raise are going to get run over.

[nomad_monad]

See this? This is good advice. Folding the flop would be horrible. Calling and reevaluating the turn is by far the best play.

... and since when did this become the weak/tight forum? I've seen so much of this type of this advice in the forum recently. People who fold to a flop raise are going to get run over.

I would never fold this in 6 max (or to a villain with looser stats), which I think is the mode where you're coming from.
Getting run over is less of a concern full ring, but even if it is, I don't think our image improves any by calling and checking all the turns that don't improve our hand. You could even say it makes it worse - the flop fold just looks like a cbet with air that we gave up. A turn fold makes it look more like we got moved off a hand.