18 replies to this topic

[dgostate8]

No reads, table condense

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t1425)
Button (t1455)
SB (t1020)
BB (t2200)
UTG (t4775)
UTG+1 (t475)
MP1 (t1305)
MP2 (t845)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J.
2 folds, MP1 calls t50, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, BB calls t100, MP1 calls t100.

Flop: (t475) T, 8, 7 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets t1155 (All-In)

Hero?

[timwakefield]

Bad raise PF. Make it 200-300. Instacall flop bet.


What is the buy-in?

[DrZoidberg]

You definitely want to thin out the herd pre flop with jacks, although you're not likely to get much action with a large raise except from people holding 1 or more likely 2 overcards. I call the all in, you've got an over pair and a gutshot straight draw to catch up with if for some reason you're behind. Shoving that flop smells like weakness, although it could be 2-pair/ a set being over protective of the highly coordinated board, although should bet more like 300 if he had a made hand that wasn't the straight. Anyway, call.

[dgostate8]

Anyway, I thought about it for a few seconds before calling. He showed Ks7s and didn't hit.

Bad raise PF. Make it 200-300.

Question I have is why should I commit 4 to 6 BBs preflop with JJ?

[BrandonPL]

Anyway, I thought about it for a few seconds before calling. He showed Ks7s and didn't hit.
Question I have is why should I commit 4 to 6 BBs preflop with JJ?

I agree with you small preflop raise. Very commonly people make large preflop raises with hands like TT, JJ, & QQ in an effort to "narrow the field" however doing so builds a bigger pot that commits you to the pot if you are check raised on the flop. Say you make it 400 and get one caller. The flop comes out something like Q72 and he checks. You bet 500 he pushes all in. YOu have no choice really but to call now because you made a big pot in an early stage of a tourney where you have few chips.

I like the 3X raise here. You are not allowing the blinds to take a free flop, gain some information on players hands if anyone does call you, and are still getting some value out of your jacks which are likely the best hand and are nearly for sure if you don't get re-raised.

[rogerwilco]

Question I have is why should I commit 4 to 6 BBs preflop with JJ?

1) for value, JJ is a very good hand and likely the best at the table in this situation
2) there is a limper in front of you, and you don't want to give the players behind you correct (or close to correct) odds to draw out on you
3) JJ is a tricky hand to play postflop in a multiway pot, even in position - unless you hit an excellent flop like you did here. It makes your decisions easier when there aren't 4 other players in the pot.
4) you are close to getting short stacked anyway, so you should make a move sometime soon
5) maybe there's more?

raising to 150 isn't terrible, but it isn't optimal either imo.

[YBravo]

I might raise to 150 in late position w/ one limper in front, but in EP I'm more likely to raise to 200.

Biased by results: call on flop, but uncomfortably

[AKProdigy]

I like following the (3 + # of limpers)*BB rule here. If the stacks were bigger it would likely be 4 + limpers. As played, I call here every time unless you have a specific read or playing higher limits (and even then I'm not sure, but I'm a low stakes player lol)

[jmbreslin]

This is a perfect spot to use your JJ to isolate the MP1 limper. As roger pointed out in his (2), your raise gave the BB almost irresistible odds to call and see a 3-way pot. And you don't want to be playing JJ against more than 1 villain if you don't have to. I'd go at least 200 and possibly 250 to make sure you get heads-up against MP1. He could be limping with a wide range of hands here - if it's a small stakes SnG, they could be any two suited cards. The bigger raise also gives you a better idea of what he's holding if he calls (if he calls a 4-5BB raise, you can feel more confident that he's probably holding Ax or paint, which may make your flop play easier.)

[WhatArunAA]

I agree with you small preflop raise. Very commonly people make large preflop raises with hands like TT, JJ, & QQ in an effort to "narrow the field" however doing so builds a bigger pot that commits you to the pot if you are check raised on the flop. Say you make it 400 and get one caller. The flop comes out something like Q72 and he checks. You bet 500 he pushes all in. YOu have no choice really but to call now because you made a big pot in an early stage of a tourney where you have few chips.

I like the 3X raise here. You are not allowing the blinds to take a free flop, gain some information on players hands if anyone does call you, and are still getting some value out of your jacks which are likely the best hand and are nearly for sure if you don't get re-raised.

no.. you need to narrow the field with hands like this because JJ doesn't play well multi-way.. 3x raise is pure suicide in the 45 mans.

[BrandonPL]

no.. you need to narrow the field with hands like this because JJ doesn't play well multi-way.. 3x raise is pure suicide in the 45 mans.

Not if you have the ability to play after the flop and fold the hand even on a favorable flop if you feel you are beat. Lets say you raise to 250 (5x). Is the extra 100 really going to make the BB fold a hand here that he called 100 more with? Are you really gaining any extra information from raising more? And if the BB does call, are MP1's odds really so much worse now that he will fold a hand that he would have called with when its only 100 more to him?

Instead you've built a bigger pot, preflop, with a hand that is very vulnerable on most flops and gained little or no extra information by doing so.

[BrandonPL]

no.. you need to narrow the field with hands like this because JJ doesn't play well multi-way.. 3x raise is pure suicide in the 45 mans.

You say its pure suicide in the 45 mans? Would it be different if it was a 90 player SNG or 2500 player MTT, or the WSOP main event?

[timwakefield]

Not if you have the ability to play after the flop and fold the hand even on a favorable flop if you feel you are beat. Lets say you raise to 250 (5x). Is the extra 100 really going to make the BB fold a hand here that he called 100 more with? Are you really gaining any extra information from raising more? And if the BB does call, are MP1's odds really so much worse now that he will fold a hand that he would have called with when its only 100 more to him?

Instead you've built a bigger pot, preflop, with a hand that is very vulnerable on most flops and gained little or no extra information by doing so.

The difference between 150 and 250 is huge at 25/50.

Say we raise to 150, it folds to BB - now he has to assume that the limper will call this small raise behind him and will definitely call it if he himself calls, so we can consider that 100 that limper will call to be already in the pot. So the pot is 75 (blinds) +50 + 150 +100 = 375 and it is 100 for BB to call, so he's getting 3.75 to 1.

Now say we raise to 250, it folds to the BB. Now he can't be sure that the limper will call this large raise, and when he looks at his pot odds he can see that there is 75+50+250=375, but now he has to call 200 so he is getting a little less than 2-1.

Now, BB is playing this hand OOP against 1 or 2 players, but in the first example he is getting such favorable odds that he may feel inclined to call with his small PP for set value, suited aces, etc. In the second example he is not getting particularly attractive odds to try to play a pot OOP against somebody who has this time declared that they have a big hand.


In regards to your last point - we're not trying to gain information here, we're trying to get value from our jacks.

[timwakefield]

You say its pure suicide in the 45 mans? Would it be different if it was a 90 player SNG or 2500 player MTT, or the WSOP main event?

Yes, if it was the WSOP main event then it would be different because you would have 10k chips at 25/50 and so the difference between 150 and 250 chips would be insignificant. When everybody starts with just 1500 chips it represents a decent portion of your starting stack.

[WhatArunAA]

Not if you have the ability to play after the flop and fold the hand even on a favorable flop if you feel you are beat. Lets say you raise to 250 (5x). Is the extra 100 really going to make the BB fold a hand here that he called 100 more with? Are you really gaining any extra information from raising more? And if the BB does call, are MP1's odds really so much worse now that he will fold a hand that he would have called with when its only 100 more to him?

Instead you've built a bigger pot, preflop, with a hand that is very vulnerable on most flops and gained little or no extra information by doing so.

wrong.

[WhatArunAA]

This week sometime i'll play a 45 man and put it on pxf.. I probably have the best ROI in 45 mans ( obv brag)... but I think with JJ you either want to play a big pot preflop( and get it in preflop if you think he is weak).. or just take the pot down pre.. these 45 man sngs aren't won in the early statges.. they are won by push botting and pwning the bubble.

[timwakefield]

This week sometime i'll play a 45 man and put it on pxf.. I probably have the best ROI in 45 mans ( obv brag)... but I think with JJ you either want to play a big pot preflop( and get it in preflop if you think he is weak).. or just take the pot down pre.. these 45 man sngs aren't won in the early statges.. they are won by push botting and pwning the bubble.

Your stats the last 3 months in 45-man:

220 $20.31 $41 28% $4,467


My stats the last 3 months in 45-man:

165 $10.55 $52 17% $1,741


And I thought I was doing well...hey at least we've both got the little shark icon. So yeah I'd love to check out some hand histories.

Good lord you have a 68% roi in just the $60 45-man games over that period (127 games played). Keep it up?


P.S. If you start a thread for it maybe I'll post some partial HH's of interesting bubble and post-bubble play, and perhaps you'd wanna give feedback .

[WhatArunAA]

Your stats the last 3 months in 45-man:

220 $20.31 $41 28% $4,467
My stats the last 3 months in 45-man:

165 $10.55 $52 17% $1,741
And I thought I was doing well...hey at least we've both got the little shark icon. So yeah I'd love to check out some hand histories.

Good lord you have a 68% roi in just the $60 45-man games over that period (127 games played). Keep it up?
P.S. If you start a thread for it maybe I'll post some partial HH's of interesting bubble and post-bubble play, and perhaps you'd wanna give feedback .

I def don't think I can sustain 68% long term.. but I do think I can maintain 30ish percent.. one of the best sng players on the web has like a 17% ROI thru a ton of them so I know that we are doing good:)

[Yahkin]

P.S. If you start a thread for it maybe I'll post some partial HH's of interesting bubble and post-bubble play, and perhaps you'd wanna give feedback .

Very interested in this!!!