17 replies to this topic

[TraptSteve]

Live 1-2 NL. 5 handed Home gameSIgnificant stacks - Villain = 1,100Hero = ~ 850 Background info: AN exploitable weaker player who was the beneficiary of a pretty nasty cooler. He managed to get 2 people all-in preflop w/ AA by flat-calling the raises of two players he was sandwiched between. After taking down that pot (which interestingly enough had lead change on each street) , he had over 1100 on him.Our Hand:Hero - SB (QQ)Villain - COUTG limps, Villain opens to 17$, Button folds, Hero raises to 37$.Folds to Villain who calls.Flop - ~80$ PotI lead out 50$ and the villain Min raises me to 100$ total. I really dont want to take this guy out of the lead at this point in the pot, as I want to ensure he has enough chips in to force him to call when I do move. The board isn't too dangerous. I hollywood it a bit and ultimately just call.Turn - Pot ~280$Hero Checks, Villain ChecksAnd he immediately checked behind me. The river card is about to be flipped over, and I was first to act with little time to reassess the situation - yikes!River - Hero Bets 150 $ , Villain takes about 2 minutes to deliberate and finally calls.Are we ok with the flop/turn passive play? Assuming we decide to reraise on the flop, how much?Results later.

[throwemaway]

I would re raise more preflop, not this min raise'ish type raise you put in..Make it 60 all dayThis is the type of hand where I want to get as much money in the pot by keep him around as well..As played, I don't like the check on the turn..Keep trying to get money in the pot, bet $200 on the turn and if he calls, shove the river

[sabes99]

i would definitely re-raise more pf, maybe to $60 or soi like your flop playonce that ugly turn card comes out there, you have to abandon the trap and bet out to protect your hand...i would bet around $200 and shovel against a raiseas played, river bet sizing is fine

[shinzilla]

Raise more pf. Like everyone else has said, bet the turn. You should've bet more on the river too. Most people who would call $150 there would call $200 as well.

[TraptSteve]

sabes99, on Sunday, July 22nd, 2007, 9:21 PM, said:

i would definitely re-raise more pf, maybe to $60 or soi like your flop playonce that ugly turn card comes out there, you have to abandon the trap and bet out to protect your hand...i would bet around $200 and shovel against a raiseas played, river bet sizing is fine

Everyone has mentioned raising more PF. I agree it will help us better define the hand on the flop when we lead out, as well as build the pot. Does the knowledge of the hitting the set have an impact in this decision?Also, so we're on the same page... if the villain raises 100$ + on the flop, I'm moving in. If he bets ANYTHING on the turn, I'm reraising/ shoving depending on the bet size.

[sabes99]

TraptSteve, on Sunday, July 22nd, 2007, 9:59 PM, said:

Everyone has mentioned raising more PF. I agree it will help us better define the hand on the flop when we lead out, as well as build the pot. Does the knowledge of the hitting the set have an impact in this decision?

no, you just have to make a larger re-raise here, it simply gets you more value...by making virtually the min raise you aren't getting any value from hands that could pay you off big on a lot of flops, i.e. J-J or 10-10...it just costs money unless you lose the hand

TraptSteve, on Sunday, July 22nd, 2007, 9:59 PM, said:

Also, so we're on the same page... if the villain raises 100$ + on the flop, I'm moving in. If he bets ANYTHING on the turn, I'm reraising/ shoving depending on the bet size.

if your plan was to move in if he made a larger raise on the flop was there a particular reason you didn't move in then?...and it's pretty obvious that you were trying to c/r the turn, but i think with the draw out there and the chance to get paid off for your hand you have to make some sort of bet on the turn

[fckthis]

I like to play my hands fast, so I wouldnt mind seeing a 3 bet on the flop. But what determines a raise or a call there, is whether or not he's going to call light here. By light, I mean Kx. If so, its an easy 3 bet. Then you can price him in on subsequent streets. He sounds like a passive player though, so I don't like giving this guy the lead, because most times he won't put more money in when he's behind.

[mtdesmoines]

TraptSteve, on Sunday, July 22nd, 2007, 8:40 PM, said:

Results later.

Is the villain the kind that likes to double people up? If he is, I jack up that flop bet quite a bit. Regardless, I bet the turn. Regardless, I bet the river harder.

[Jordan]

If this is the right kind of opponent, I shove the flop.---PF you need to 3bet more, or just call. No point in the min-raise, really here.I like your flop lead, once he 3bets though, you can do one of two things...and that depends on the player.I said, I'll shove here with a set, but I don't know your image (how you're viewed), and you didn't mention how easy he stacks off, just that he is weak.So, if you think a shove is too much, for this player, just make it like $300 and try and get more money into the pot, and hope he has AK or something and can't fold.Turn is a chitty card, big action killer...river I usually bet a bit more here, prob $175-$230- Jordan

[mtdesmoines]

Jordan, on Monday, July 23rd, 2007, 10:32 AM, said:

Turn is a chitty card, big action killer...

I think we can be reasonably sure that a hand that hits a straight here is pretty much out of the action by now.

[LongLiveYorke]

mtdesmoines, on Monday, July 23rd, 2007, 2:57 PM, said:

I think we can be reasonably sure that a hand that hits a straight here is pretty much out of the action by now.

It's more of an action killer for him. I seriously doubt the jack helped him really. I would guess that he is holding AK and was scared of your two pair with KQ or KJ on the turn, especially when he checks it behind. I doubt any two pair, set, or probably even a straight would check behind. Since the pot is already big from preflop and on the flop, and since our stack isn't huge from the quickly bloating pot, I certainly would want to bet the turn. Having it checked behind is really bad because it costs us a lot of money (not only the money on the turn but the increased amount of money that would go in on the river since bets in NL grow in relation to the pot in a somewhat exponential way). I think the real decision is whether to reraise him on the flop or to call and bet the turn, and the answer really depends on what type of player we think he is (basically, if he'll call all in with AK on that flop, then reraise the flop, and if he won't, then slowly get our chips in on the turn and river).

[foucault]

When you are playing with deep stacks, all of your bets need to be larger than they would be in the same situation but with shallower stacks. This is especially true when you are out of position. The value of position increases with stack depth, so with a hand like QQ you want to get as much in pre-flop as you can to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd probably make it $60 to go pre-flop, as even at that price Villain is getting pretty decent implied odds. This is a good flop for you, not only because you hit your set, but because there is also a very plausible second best hand for your opponent to hold. You need to go ahead and bet big, because your opponent either has a hand or he doesn't. Your objective isn't to entice him to bluff or to peel with a hand that won't put a lot more money in unless it improves to a winner (AT/AJ/JT/T9), it's to make him stack off with AK and the like. Just bet hard at the flop and hope he's got a hand. If you bet big and he raises, I'm ok with flat calling, because at that point there should be about a pot-sized bet left in the stacks. You can check-call turn, or shove river if turn checks through. But your bet was too small, and you need to take advantage of the opportunity Villain has given you to make up for it by three-betting flop. Make it $250, and then shove the turn.As others have said, this turn is too scary for you to check. Lead out and give Villain the chance to shove on you with a pair + draw. You'd rather he did that than check back or bet-fold, which is likely if you c/r all in.Pot the river, maybe even overbet, because donkeys like to call.

[Jordan]

foucault, on Monday, July 23rd, 2007, 12:15 PM, said:

When you are playing with deep stacks, all of your bets need to be larger than they would be in the same situation but with shallower stacks. This is especially true when you are out of position. The value of position increases with stack depth, so with a hand like QQ you want to get as much in pre-flop as you can to negate your positional disadvantage. I'd probably make it $60 to go pre-flop, as even at that price Villain is getting pretty decent implied odds. This is a good flop for you, not only because you hit your set, but because there is also a very plausible second best hand for your opponent to hold. You need to go ahead and bet big, because your opponent either has a hand or he doesn't. Your objective isn't to entice him to bluff or to peel with a hand that won't put a lot more money in unless it improves to a winner (AT/AJ/JT/T9), it's to make him stack off with AK and the like. Just bet hard at the flop and hope he's got a hand. If you bet big and he raises, I'm ok with flat calling, because at that point there should be about a pot-sized bet left in the stacks. You can check-call turn, or shove river if turn checks through. But your bet was too small, and you need to take advantage of the opportunity Villain has given you to make up for it by three-betting flop. Make it $250, and then shove the turn.As others have said, this turn is too scary for you to check. Lead out and give Villain the chance to shove on you with a pair + draw. You'd rather he did that than check back or bet-fold, which is likely if you c/r all in.Pot the river, maybe even overbet, because donkeys like to call.

wtf(un)?most of this is really good, until that.raise really really small, then shove the turn? how is this not just basically flipping our hand over and saying, I have a set? Especially with the small 3bet on the flop. I def think you need to make it at least $300 here, unless you have a very specific read that villain will see the small 3bet as a bluff/uncomfortable hand and will shove over the top.otherwise, I just hate the small 3bet, shove turn line...really gives up a ton of value, by announcing our hand.fou, are you hoping that the small 3bet, shove, will look like a weaker hand? and get looked up by say, AK? I can see that working, but I think you're still better off not making the small 3bet on the flop...OOP that just screams monster to me, if I were villain.Thoughts?- Jordan

[sabes99]

Jordan, on Monday, July 23rd, 2007, 12:56 PM, said:

wtf(un)?most of this is really good, until that.raise really really small, then shove the turn? how is this not just basically flipping our hand over and saying, I have a set? Especially with the small 3bet on the flop. I def think you need to make it at least $300 here, unless you have a very specific read that villain will see the small 3bet as a bluff/uncomfortable hand and will shove over the top.otherwise, I just hate the small 3bet, shove turn line...really gives up a ton of value, by announcing our hand.fou, are you hoping that the small 3bet, shove, will look like a weaker hand? and get looked up by say, AK? I can see that working, but I think you're still better off not making the small 3bet on the flop...OOP that just screams monster to me, if I were villain.

agreed, although i think you can make a case for the flat-call line on the flop as well

[Acid_Knight]

Ditto raising more preflop. If he has the worst hand, we want to make him pay more for it. It has nothing to do with the foreknowledge that we hit a set. If I think I have the best hand, I wnat money going into the pot.When he raises that flop, I like to reraise right there. I think most of the time he has an AK type hand here and is willing to give you some action. I would assume that he's drawing slim to dead (unless he's playing me) so I would put in a 3-bet on the flop with a smaller interval than I'd normally use. When the turn rolls off, I'd bet about 2/3 of the pot and then shovel the river if he's still in there.As played, I'd bet more on the river, like $225 or something. Your hand doesn't look much stronger than AK here, so you should get paid by him.

[Lavitz]

You butchered this hand I think. Especially given that he seems kind of like a passive calling station from AA hand.Preflop: 3 bet more.Flop: After you bet and he min reraises I would probably put in a further min reraise. From your description he's probably not smart enough to realize what your raise signifies and will think "wow, only another $100 to me in a big pot" instead of "wow a 3 bet p-flop and a min reraise on flop probably means hes inflating the pot with a monster"Turn: Lead whether you put in a further reraise or not. A lot of river cards will kill your action or give him a straight and we can't afford to let him catch up.River: VALUETOWN WHEEE.Basically you want to get all-in by the river and the way you played it keeps the pot too small.

[TraptSteve]

Ok the consensus is that I didn't play this hand very well. Which is what I thought.I think the key to this is that I didn't reraise enough preflop. If I had made it 60 to go the pot would be big enough on the flop, assuming the betting remains the same, to commit our villain.I knew I missed played the hand prior the posting, regardless of the outcome of the hand:Villain tabled KK for top set. So, it is sort of a brag post that I didnt go broke with set over set, but I'm aware it was just us misplaying the hand (villain and I). He said that he was worried about the straight on the turn, confirming that the best play would have been 3betting the flop. If the pot had enough money in it from my larger PF raise, then I could have just shoved.

[danc1984]

Wow. The villain played his hand absolutely horribly. If I was in either player's shoes all I would have been thinking about was how to get all my money into the middle ASAP. Unless the board is ridiculous I always go completely broke with sets, you are just missing too much value if you don't.