How To Make The Big Laydown?

[wheezer16 0]

I have been playing online for a couple of years in lower limit cash games, and consider myself a decent player. I have eliminated a lot of leaks in my game and feel that my game has slowly improved. HOWEVER...I still often find myself unable to laydown a good hand when I have some cash in the pot even when I recognize that I am likely beat (based on the betting pattern,...). I end up giving back all of my hard earned BR on a few stupid plays. Why can't I click 'fold' when I know I'm beat????????

[wsox8 10]

When you figure out tell me how.

[Actuary 3]

I have been playing online for a couple of years in lower limit cash games, and consider myself a decent player. I have eliminated a lot of leaks in my game and feel that my game has slowly improved. HOWEVER...I still often find myself unable to laydown a good hand when I have some cash in the pot even when I recognize that I am likely beat (based on the betting pattern,...). I end up giving back all of my hard earned BR on a few stupid plays. Why can't I click 'fold' when I know I'm beat????????

in and of itself, learning to make "big laydowns" in Limit is NOT a goal you should pursue.Say, you are playing 50c,$1 Limit an the pot is $12 on the river and you are last to act and need to call 1 bet with your Top Pair Top kicker hand.Say you are reasonably beat 17/18 times. Even then you are losing 0.27cents per hand. Now, when you consider: The information you get from calling, the Metegame Benefits of calling occasionally "when you are surely beat" and the tendency for bad players to bluff into you in big pots, you wil find that finding folds in big pots is -EV.Now, if you are playing middle pair on 4 flush boards and trying to power-poker your way to winning every pot, my post does not apply.Please post hands in the LHE forum and I will be gald to give you more help.I'm in a good mood.

[wheezer16 0]

in and of itself, learning to make "big laydowns" in Limit is NOT a goal you should pursue.Say, you are playing 50c,$1 Limit an the pot is $12 on the river and you are last to act and need to call 1 bet with your Top Pair Top kicker hand.Say you are reasonably beat 17/18 times. Even then you are losing 0.27cents per hand. Now, when you consider: The information you get from calling, the Metegame Benefits of calling occasionally "when you are surely beat" and the tendency for bad players to bluff into you in big pots, you wil find that finding folds in big pots is -EV.Now, if you are playing middle pair on 4 flush boards and trying to power-poker your way to winning every pot, my post does not apply.Please post hands in the LHE forum and I will be gald to give you more help.I'm in a good mood.

Sorry for the confusion...I meant lower limit NL hold 'em.

[Actuary 3]

Sorry for the confusion...I meant lower limit NL hold 'em.

oh, I see. Well my NL game is not as good.But I'd suggest you trust aggression from most players unless you have solid reason to think you are being bluffed.Keep the pot manageble and commiserate with your hand strength.Small Pots for Small hands.Big pots for monsters.That will help you to make smaller errors on your river plays. It's easier to laydown TopPairTopKicker when you have not bet pot each street and get c/r'd on the river.On the other hand, if you are "pot committed" by the turn with your set, and the draw hits on river, so be it - "pay it off", you charged enough to make money over the long run

[sabes99 0]

well in any game it's generally correct to follow your gut instinct of course, but in small NL games you probably shouldn't be too hard on yourself...sometimes people do go nuts and make monstrous bluffs or overplay marginal hands, and i imagine that you know this and maybe this is part of the reason you still call downhowever, if you do manage to move up, they will have the goods even more often than down in lower limits, so then you will really need to trust your instincts, and you will need to go with your reads in this situations...in smaller games, though, strange things happen so i can't say i would kill myself over it if i were you

[wheezer16 0]

well in any game it's generally correct to follow your gut instinct of course, but in small NL games you probably shouldn't be too hard on yourself...sometimes people do go nuts and make monstrous bluffs or overplay marginal hands, and i imagine that you know this and maybe this is part of the reason you still call downhowever, if you do manage to move up, they will have the goods even more often than down in lower limits, so then you will really need to trust your instincts, and you will need to go with your reads in this situations...in smaller games, though, strange things happen so i can't say i would kill myself over it if i were you

I'm playing at tables where the quality of the opponents in fairly solid, but betting patterns are fairly easy to read, and usually reliable. The biggest problems come when I have a big pp or 2 pairs and my opponent hits a set...his big reraise when I have already shown strength tells me I am beat (usually correct), but I have trouble letting go because I'm invested. 99% of the time I don't play like a donkey, but at the critical times I do.

[sabes99 0]

I'm playing at tables where the quality of the opponents in fairly solid, but betting patterns are fairly easy to read, and usually reliable. The biggest problems come when I have a big pp or 2 pairs and my opponent hits a set...his big reraise when I have already shown strength tells me I am beat (usually correct), but I have trouble letting go because I'm invested. 99% of the time I don't play like a donkey, but at the critical times I do.

you are just one of thousands of players, including myself at the top of the list, as having this problem...sometimes you just have to decide that you are beat and let your hand go...this used to be my absolute worst leak, and i've worked hard to try to fix it completely but sometimes i still go back to my old ways and even though i know better i pay it off

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

http://www.pokerstove.com/That helped my game a ton.

[wheezer16 0]

I really believe that one of the big factors in my inability to lay down hands might have to do with the time limit (online). My instinct tells me that I am beat, and with a minute or two to think it out (instead of 20-30 seconds) I would probably lay down more of these problematic hands.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I really believe that one of the big factors in my inability to lay down hands might have to do with the time limit (online). My instinct tells me that I am beat, and with a minute or two to think it out (instead of 20-30 seconds) I would probably lay down more of these problematic hands.

heres an idea,asign your opponents a range of hands. in that range, which hands do you beat, which beat you. etc etc...try and imagine now what your opponent puts you on. what does he need to beat what he thinks you hold? etc....when you can safely say.."its not worth it because i only beat XX, or XX and all other holdings in his range beat me, than its easy to fold.or you can just run like god and not worry

[trystero 0]

I really believe that one of the big factors in my inability to lay down hands might have to do with the time limit (online). My instinct tells me that I am beat, and with a minute or two to think it out (instead of 20-30 seconds) I would probably lay down more of these problematic hands.

What are some of these hands? Post them on here so we've got some idea of what you mean. In general, though, don't worry about making the "big laydown." Most laydowns are fairly standard when you've played enough. Example: betting top pair on the flop and the turn and then being raised by an unknown. Now that's not a "big laydown" - that's almost standard. Most opponents are not raising you on the turn with weaker hands. Sure, sometimes you fold the winner but more often than not you're drawing thin if not dead. Of course with a read you can make this call, but the important point is that you need this read to do so.What royal said is correct, that you have to assign your opponent(s) a range. Once you get enough experience decisions tend to become automatic. You remember how when you first studied poker you had to consciously tell yourself to fold A9o UTG in a 9-handed game? You had to assess your situation, "What position am I in? How many players are at the table? How likely am I to be dominated? What do I do if reraised? What do I do if I flop an ace and am raised by the button?" Eventually you came to the decision of "fold." And as you logged more hands that type of fold became automatic. You didn't even think about it. You knew that A9o was dominated by way too many hands to be raising from such early position. Well, it's the same thing postflop. After a while you just have a feeling for when you're beaten. Of course not all of what you do will result from instinct. You'll still be dissecting the hand - but with more experience you'll be able to analyze it more intelligently and quickly.Remember, in order to make a big laydown you need a good read on your opponent. Without one you're probably folding more winners than losers. It's just like making a big call. You need reads.

[wheezer16 0]

What are some of these hands? Post them on here so we've got some idea of what you mean. In general, though, don't worry about making the "big laydown." Most laydowns are fairly standard when you've played enough. Example: betting top pair on the flop and the turn and then being raised by an unknown. Now that's not a "big laydown" - that's almost standard. Most opponents are not raising you on the turn with weaker hands. Sure, sometimes you fold the winner but more often than not you're drawing thin if not dead. Of course with a read you can make this call, but the important point is that you need this read to do so.What royal said is correct, that you have to assign your opponent(s) a range. Once you get enough experience decisions tend to become automatic. You remember how when you first studied poker you had to consciously tell yourself to fold A9o UTG in a 9-handed game? You had to assess your situation, "What position am I in? How many players are at the table? How likely am I to be dominated? What do I do if reraised? What do I do if I flop an ace and am raised by the button?" Eventually you came to the decision of "fold." And as you logged more hands that type of fold became automatic. You didn't even think about it. You knew that A9o was dominated by way too many hands to be raising from such early position. Well, it's the same thing postflop. After a while you just have a feeling for when you're beaten. Of course not all of what you do will result from instinct. You'll still be dissecting the hand - but with more experience you'll be able to analyze it more intelligently and quickly.Remember, in order to make a big laydown you need a good read on your opponent. Without one you're probably folding more winners than losers. It's just like making a big call. You need reads.

Thanks for the feedback. One example might be where I've got AA or KK, i raise preflop, see a favourable flop, make a pot (or near pot-sized) bet, my opponent makes a big re-raise or limp re-raise. I've already shown strength twice and am still getting re-raised. Usually I am beat here (e.g. by a set)...KK or QQ may be re-raising but I'm usually paying off a better hand. My instincts are usually right, but I feel rushed (online) and often call when I know I shouldn't. Then comes the shame, lol.

[trystero 0]

Thanks for the feedback. One example might be where I've got AA or KK, i raise preflop, see a favourable flop, make a pot (or near pot-sized) bet, my opponent makes a big re-raise or limp re-raise. I've already shown strength twice and am still getting re-raised. Usually I am beat here (e.g. by a set)...KK or QQ may be re-raising but I'm usually paying off a better hand. My instincts are usually right, but I feel rushed (online) and often call when I know I shouldn't. Then comes the shame, lol.

You play full ring?

[Royal_Tour 0]

Thanks for the feedback. One example might be where I've got AA or KK, i raise preflop, see a favourable flop, make a pot (or near pot-sized) bet, my opponent makes a big re-raise or limp re-raise. I've already shown strength twice and am still getting re-raised. Usually I am beat here (e.g. by a set)...KK or QQ may be re-raising but I'm usually paying off a better hand. My instincts are usually right, but I feel rushed (online) and often call when I know I shouldn't. Then comes the shame, lol.

these can be situationalin situations like this, example.1/2 NL You - 200 chipsVillain 200 chipsu make a raise to 15 with AAvillain callsflop 7,10,JU bet 30. he raises to 75.his holdings can be anything from 7,7 10,10 JJ AJ, J,10 8,9 etc...if he is loose enough, KJ, QJ A,10 You need to realize you can only raise or fold. You need enough info to know if ur good here, or if ur beat.if the same hand and flop occur in this situationyou 200villain 95preflop bet 15flop 7,10,Ju bet 30 villain goes all in.its 50 more to you. pot is 140. you are getting almost 3:1 Sometimes you're beat, sometimes you're ahead. But its almost impossible to lay down an over pair like Kings or aces in a situation like this.if this is what u mean, by making the laydowns. cuz i know that after a few of these, they can take their toll on your stacks.

[wheezer16 0]

these can be situationalin situations like this, example.1/2 NL You - 200 chipsVillain 200 chipsu make a raise to 15 with AAvillain callsflop 7,10,JU bet 30. he raises to 75.his holdings can be anything from 7,7 10,10 JJ AJ, J,10 8,9 etc...if he is loose enough, KJ, QJ A,10 You need to realize you can only raise or fold. You need enough info to know if ur good here, or if ur beat.if the same hand and flop occur in this situationyou 200villain 95preflop bet 15flop 7,10,Ju bet 30 villain goes all in.its 50 more to you. pot is 140. you are getting almost 3:1 Sometimes you're beat, sometimes you're ahead. But its almost impossible to lay down an over pair like Kings or aces in a situation like this.if this is what u mean, by making the laydowns. cuz i know that after a few of these, they can take their toll on your stacks.

Ya...sometimes I don't have enough info, often I will re-raise all-in if my opponent has a relatively short stack and I can't put him on a hand. I play full ring, .50/1. I've thought of a more specific example...I (standard) raise 1 limper from middle position with QQ (we both have $100), and only that limper calls. The flop comes 7-9-2 rainbow. He checks and I make a pot sized bet, he makes a big re-raise...if I call or raise I will be pot-committed. Based on what I know I feel that I am beat, but grudgingly raise all-in (after all he may have JJ ot TT). He flips over 7-9. I am toast, and I feel that I should have followed my instinct and folded. It is just so hard for me to follow my instinct, especially under the time pressure.

[antistuff 0]

these can be situationalin situations like this, example.1/2 NL You - 200 chipsVillain 200 chipsu make a raise to 15 with AAvillain callsflop 7,10,JU bet 30. he raises to 75.his holdings can be anything from 7,7 10,10 JJ AJ, J,10 8,9 etc...if he is loose enough, KJ, QJ A,10 You need to realize you can only raise or fold. You need enough info to know if ur good here, or if ur beat.if the same hand and flop occur in this situation

you dont have enough here to fold if you make any sort of a raise and he comes back at you. im thinking this is read dependent but against your average player who is way to passive this is a fold. flops with middle cards, especially tens and jacks, seem to be death in that situation.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I know it sounds trivial, but do you ever just think "man, I can't be winning here, even though I have a (insert strong hand here)!"It's often a good time to fold. I'm not trying to be an ass either, I'm serious. If you've been playing for a while and you just feel that you're beat, then fold.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I know it sounds trivial, but do you ever just think "man, I can't be winning here, even though I have a (insert strong hand here)!"It's often a good time to fold. I'm not trying to be an ass either, I'm serious. If you've been playing for a while and you just feel that you're beat, then fold.

This is actually amazingly good advice. After playing for a long time, one should have a pretty good sense of when a great hand is beat. Don't be afraid of your instincts, and remember that pot odds don't matter when you're drawing dead.

[Zach6668 513]

remember that pot odds don't matter when you're drawing dead.

What if you are getting infinity to 1?My head asploded.

[timwakefield 69]

My problem is that I just gotta see it. I mean I definitely can fold big hands, but there's some spots where I'm like 'Ooooh my read on this guy is soooo good, I just know he flopped a full house, well maybe he's bluffing and I'll just pay him off but I wanna see it. Yep there it is, man I'm so good I knew he had that, my reads are stellar I'm so awesome. Oh wait, no I should have folded, I'm an idiot.'

[simo_8ball 1]

remember that pot odds don't matter when you're drawing dead.

Hmm. At what point would the pot odds on drawing dead become worthwhile from an information point of view? Metagame considerations and the like. Information and image have value.I actually struggle more making big calls than big laydowns, and that's something I know I have to work on.EDIT: Ok, pot odds aren't the significant thing here. It's how many BB it's worth.

[simo_8ball 1]

'Ooooh my read on this guy is soooo good, I just know he flopped a full house, well maybe he's bluffing and I'll just pay him off but I wanna see it. Yep there it is, man I'm so good I knew he had that, my reads are stellar I'm so awesome. Oh wait, no I should have folded, I'm an idiot.'

I did that with KK vs AA preflop. I announced to my mate that I was folding KK preflop. Then I called to see if it was the right fold. It was. I hit quads, fwiw.

[timwakefield 69]

I did that with KK vs AA preflop. I announced to my mate that I was folding KK preflop. Then I called to see if it was the right fold. It was. I hit quads, fwiw.

Rewarded for making a good read .

[Actuary 3]

My problem is that I just gotta see it. I mean I definitely can fold big hands, but there's some spots where I'm like 'Ooooh my read on this guy is soooo good, I just know he flopped a full house, well maybe he's bluffing and I'll just pay him off but I wanna see it. Yep there it is, man I'm so good I knew he had that, my reads are stellar I'm so awesome. Oh wait, no I should have folded, I'm an idiot.'

you don't say?