24 replies to this topic

[Pot Odds RAC]

I am a fairly consistent winning player at smaller stakes ($1/$2 NL TxHE). Often I will have a bit of a "rollercoaster" session, where I'll be up and down all evening, but know that eventually I'll grind back into positive territory. This is especially true at the local Casino where you can be sure that eventually most of the players will "want" to lose their stacks - you just need to wait for the opportunity to accommodate their wishes.

Once in a while I will have a session where I hit an extended "Cold Deck". I'll use this Saturday as an example.

I show up and sit at a brand new table, everyone has the same starting stack.

The table is full and there are two much older guys and the rest are kids perhaps 20 years old - I'm somewhere in between. The table doesn't have a shuffler, so the dealer is going to have to wash & shuffle the cards by hand. This combined with the HORRIBLY slow play from the inexperienced players made the game VERY lethargic. Despite the sluggish pace, I was having a pretty good time. The inexperienced players were generally calling stations, so all I needed to do was wait for hands and pick them off. One by one they fell and were replaced by a similar version of the young first time Casino player. Is there a machine in the back spitting these guys out - complete with their first ever legal beer in one hand and $200 in the other? In less than 2 hours every seat with the exception of my own and one other had turned over at least once.

Initially, my approach seems to be tailor made for this table, I catch one good early hand and nearly double up.

Yay me.

Then...

...nothing...

...and I mean NOTHING.

In three hours of play I saw no pocket pairs, AK once, AJ once, A10 twice, KQ once, KJ twice, and K10 once. Suited connectors perhaps three times. Other than that I had no "Quality" starting hands. In fact, I never even saw a situation where I made a Fold of rags and then the board came around to connect with what I had folded. I only saw two hands that I would have possibly won if I had stuck around with poor cards - for example one hand I folded 10/4 preflop and the flop came Q/10/7 the play continued and I would have wound up taking the pot with a stinking pair of 10s. That was one of TWO hands that I saw that I would have taken if I'd stayed in the hand to the bitter end.

While I know that sometimes you need to "make your own hands" and play the player not your cards, against a table full of calling stations you do need to catch a hand because it is so often going to showdown.

I was having fun and I am certain that I would have eventually come back, but I just had a feeling that it wasn't "My night". Even after a few hours of this cold deck (the ONLY hand I won was that early hand) - I had played very patient and was still only down slightly - perhaps 1/4 of a buy in. I then lost what I had on a hand (playing from the Button I flopped a straight holding Q9, only to get rivered by a Boat). The plodding pace of the table, the frustration of three hours of cold cards, and a river beat was too much for me to take - so I wished the table "good luck" excused myself from the table.

My question is: If you are down, and know you're playing well against weaker players, but don't "feel" like it is "your night" - do you grind it out, or leave and wait for the next opportunity?

[Zach6668]

In theory, if you're playing your A game, it doesn't matter how much you are down or up at any given time. It's a long run game, as we know, so as long as you're playing against people that you have an edge over, than you should continue.

In reality though, if you get stuck a bit, or catch a cold run of cards, then you may tend to alter your play, suboptimally. If that's the case, then it's a good idea to quit. Obviously, there's no such thing as it "not being your night."

Most players do get affected by how they run, so it's just natural, and a good idea to be able to control yourself from spewing, if you can get up and leave when you're no longer playing profitable poker.

In my case, I tend to get stuck a couple hundred right off the bat, that just inspires me to put in a longer session. Of course, I should be playing hands/hours, not results, but nonetheless, they do affect me. If I get up a bit early, sometimes I close it just to book a win, but that's terribly limiting my profit potential. Just yesterday, I started off up $200 or so, after 600 hands, and forced myself to continue playing 1200 more hands, and made another $400 or so, instead of just quitting at noon. I'm proud of that, because in the past, I would have just shut 'er down and saved my long sessions for when I was stuck and most likely not playing my best poker, which is a terrible thing.

[Pot Odds RAC]

In theory, if you're playing your A game, it doesn't matter how much you are down or up at any given time. It's a long run game, as we know, so as long as you're playing against people that you have an edge over, than you should continue.

In reality though, if you get stuck a bit, or catch a cold run of cards, then you may tend to alter your play, suboptimally. If that's the case, then it's a good idea to quit. Obviously, there's no such thing as it "not being your night."
Most players do get affected by how they run, so it's just natural, and a good idea to be able to control yourself from spewing, if you can get up and leave when you're no longer playing profitable poker.

In my case, I tend to get stuck a couple hundred right off the bat, that just inspires me to put in a longer session. Of course, I should be playing hands/hours, not results, but nonetheless, they do affect me. If I get up a bit early, sometimes I close it just to book a win, but that's terribly limiting my profit potential. Just yesterday, I started off up $200 or so, after 600 hands, and forced myself to continue playing 1200 more hands, and made another $400 or so, instead of just quitting at noon. I'm proud of that, because in the past, I would have just shut 'er down and saved my long sessions for when I was stuck and most likely not playing my best poker, which is a terrible thing.

Yeah, that's why I put it in quotes. I try not to succumb to illogical thinking, but sometimes I realize I am getting frustrated by a bad run.

...I guess the bottom line is: play your best game, generally you'll beat the lesser players, and when variance happens, bbf...

[Zach6668]

Also, fwiw, playing live poker on magnifies all of this by about 3000000000 times. The pace, the inability to multitable, etc just makes me want to kill myself during a bad run, and really forces you to want to force the action and start spewing. It's not a good combination.

[Dice_3008]

I am a fairly consistent winning player at smaller stakes ($1/$2 NL TxHE). Often I will have a bit of a "rollercoaster" session, where I'll be up and down all evening, but know that eventually I'll grind back into positive territory. This is especially true at the local Casino where you can be sure that eventually most of the players will "want" to lose their stacks - you just need to wait for the opportunity to accommodate their wishes.

Once in a while I will have a session where I hit an extended "Cold Deck". I'll use this Saturday as an example.

I show up and sit at a brand new table, everyone has the same starting stack.

The table is full and there are two much older guys and the rest are kids perhaps 20 years old - I'm somewhere in between. The table doesn't have a shuffler, so the dealer is going to have to wash & shuffle the cards by hand. This combined with the HORRIBLY slow play from the inexperienced players made the game VERY lethargic. Despite the sluggish pace, I was having a pretty good time. The inexperienced players were generally calling stations, so all I needed to do was wait for hands and pick them off. One by one they fell and were replaced by a similar version of the young first time Casino player. Is there a machine in the back spitting these guys out - complete with their first ever legal beer in one hand and $200 in the other? In less than 2 hours every seat with the exception of my own and one other had turned over at least once.

Initially, my approach seems to be tailor made for this table, I catch one good early hand and nearly double up.

Yay me.

Then...

...nothing...

...and I mean NOTHING.

In three hours of play I saw no pocket pairs, AK once, AJ once, A10 twice, KQ once, KJ twice, and K10 once. Suited connectors perhaps three times. Other than that I had no "Quality" starting hands. In fact, I never even saw a situation where I made a Fold of rags and then the board came around to connect with what I had folded. I only saw two hands that I would have possibly won if I had stuck around with poor cards - for example one hand I folded 10/4 preflop and the flop came Q/10/7 the play continued and I would have wound up taking the pot with a stinking pair of 10s. That was one of TWO hands that I saw that I would have taken if I'd stayed in the hand to the bitter end.

While I know that sometimes you need to "make your own hands" and play the player not your cards, against a table full of calling stations you do need to catch a hand because it is so often going to showdown.

I was having fun and I am certain that I would have eventually come back, but I just had a feeling that it wasn't "My night". Even after a few hours of this cold deck (the ONLY hand I won was that early hand) - I had played very patient and was still only down slightly - perhaps 1/4 of a buy in. I then lost what I had on a hand (playing from the Button I flopped a straight holding Q9, only to get rivered by a Boat). The plodding pace of the table, the frustration of three hours of cold cards, and a river beat was too much for me to take - so I wished the table "good luck" excused myself from the table.

My question is: If you are down, and know you're playing well against weaker players, but don't "feel" like it is "your night" - do you grind it out, or leave and wait for the next opportunity?

This is a great thread and I hope we get some good feed back as I think this the biggest leak in my cash game. I know exactly what you mean when you feel your playing well against lesser opponents and just keep getting dealt rags for literally hours. Then you start to watch the board and start thinking even if I played these rags I wouldn't be hitting anything when you really should be paying attention to your opponents.

I sit there and think that the deck has to turn at some point. Then I start getting anxious and playing marginal hands in marginal situations. That usually ends with me telling myself I should have just racked up when I knew it wasn't my night instead of sulking over a lost $200.

Like Pot Odds asked. Should we be trying to outplay 1-2 players out of pots and putting ourselves at risk with air when the deck isn't cooperating? Or do we grind it out for a while and if we feel nothing is going to happen rack up?

[Royal_Tour]

I got stuck 400 today. and left.

I played for 8 hours and had garbage all night. NL is up and down several times over in long sessions

I hovered around the even point to down 100 at 1/2NL for 6 of the 8 hours.

The majority of pots i won were steals, i only went to showdown like 5 times and lost 2 of the 5. and 1 was a cooler, 1 was a suckout. they were what killed me.

and when things like this happen, you shouldnt think of it as your night or not. Its just a bad run of cards and if your mind and body are capable of continuing, then go for it.

Mine tonight said No more. I was tired and pissed. Out of my last 13 weeks, this is the 2nd time i've left down 400. which is Ok, because I play in a long term frame, like zach said.
So even though this week starts off -400, i'm confident i can grind back the next few days and finish the week in the positives.

[pocket3s]

Read about Mike Caro's Threshold of Misery

[Pot Odds RAC]

I got stuck 400 today. and left.

I played for 8 hours and had garbage all night. NL is up and down several times over in long sessions

I hovered around the even point to down 100 at 1/2NL for 6 of the 8 hours.

The majority of pots i won were steals, i only went to showdown like 5 times and lost 2 of the 5. and 1 was a cooler, 1 was a suckout. they were what killed me.

and when things like this happen, you shouldnt think of it as your night or not. Its just a bad run of cards and if your mind and body are capable of continuing, then go for it.

Mine tonight said No more. I was tired and pissed. Out of my last 13 weeks, this is the 2nd time i've left down 400. which is Ok, because I play in a long term frame, like zach said.
So even though this week starts off -400, i'm confident i can grind back the next few days and finish the week in the positives.

That is certainly the "healthiest" mindset to have. I guess this could easily go under the heading of "Tilt Control".

"Tilt" doesn't just have to be related to a bad beat, it is a state of mind - losing your ability to control your game. Fatigue can be considered as a special category of Tilt.

[No_Neck]

Read about Mike Caro's Threshold of Misery

Link To Caros Threshold of Misery

This benefit has a lot to do with Caro’s Threshold of Misery. Did I ever tell you about that? It states that in poker and in life you can reach a stage where the misery grows so great you stop caring. You already feel maximum pain. Maximum misery. If more bad things happen in life or if you lose more money in poker that night, it doesn’t feel any worse. You’re maxed out. You’ve crossed the Threshold of Misery.

makes a lot of sense to me.

[rog]

How are you down? You "nearly double up"...What's that...40 BB or so? Then nothing for 3 hours of slow dealing...what...70 hands? 9 orbits? 15 BB at most. How are you not up 30 or more Blinds at the end of this? Buying in short maybe?

[Pot Odds RAC]

How are you down? You "nearly double up"...What's that...40 BB or so? Then nothing for 3 hours of slow dealing...what...70 hands? 9 orbits? 15 BB at most. How are you not up 30 or more Blinds at the end of this? Buying in short maybe?

Table max buy-in was 50BB

My one win was about 35BB

Lost some on preflop action on the few marginal starting hands I did have - for example the A/K from the Button cost me about 12 BB. As you say approx 15 BB in Orbits. And perhaps "leaked" another 10BB.

[flintsword]

Many thanks to No Neck for providing that link to Mike Caro's "Threshold of Misery" ... I had never read it. I find that if you are playing for a few hours and running bad due to bad cards and bad beats (despite making corrent decisions generally), you really have to play the hours, not the result. If your earn rate over 10,000 hours is (for example) $10/hr, even if you play six hours and drop $300, you have still *made* $60.

Minimizing your losses when the cards run against you is also a skill that you now have an opportunity to practice.

I am pretty sure everyone on this site has read Daniel Negreanu's article on this subject, Play Hours, not Results, and I would have pasted the link in here, but the link on www.fullcontactpoker.com is disabled (Hey Moderator! Pass it on! )

Great article. I have used this idea to play tournament after tournament, learning what I can along the way, confident that sooner or later, what you learn piles up, in the classic "accumulation of small advantages", and you win a tournament.

This mindset works, keeps you calm no matter what kind of donkey draw out tosses your carcass to the rail.

Eventually, your ship will come in, and in some cases, that ship is a supertanker. I scored a few $1,000+ prizes and then won US$16,000. In my case it is not fiction.

Running bad is an opportunity for you to gain experience playing poker when the cards are not helping you out.

[Pot Odds RAC]

Many thanks to No Neck for providing that link to Mike Caro's "Threshold of Misery" ... I had never read it. I find that if you are playing for a few hours and running bad due to bad cards and bad beats (despite making corrent decisions generally), you really have to play the hours, not the result. If your earn rate over 10,000 hours is (for example) $10/hr, even if you play six hours and drop $300, you have still *made* $60.

Minimizing your losses when the cards run against you is also a skill that you now have an opportunity to practice.

I am pretty sure everyone on this site has read Daniel Negreanu's article on this subject, Play Hours, not Results, and I would have pasted the link in here, but the link on www.fullcontactpoker.com is disabled (Hey Moderator! Pass it on! )

Great article. I have used this idea to play tournament after tournament, learning what I can along the way, confident that sooner or later, what you learn piles up, in the classic "accumulation of small advantages", and you win a tournament.

This mindset works, keeps you calm no matter what kind of donkey draw out tosses your carcass to the rail.

Eventually, your ship will come in, and in some cases, that ship is a supertanker. I scored a few $1,000+ prizes and then won US$16,000. In my case it is not fiction.

Running bad is an opportunity for you to gain experience playing poker when the cards are not helping you out.

Another outstanding attitude. The way I looked at it was it was an opportunity for me to work on other aspects of my game, especially reading the other players. I love the game so much that a buy-in is a cheap price for experience.

[Actuary]

I got stuck 400 today. and left.

I played for 8 hours and had garbage all night. NL is up and down several times over in long sessions

I hovered around the even point to down 100 at 1/2NL for 6 of the 8 hours.

The majority of pots i won were steals, i only went to showdown like 5 times and lost 2 of the 5. and 1 was a cooler, 1 was a suckout. they were what killed me.

and when things like this happen, you shouldnt think of it as your night or not. Its just a bad run of cards and if your mind and body are capable of continuing, then go for it.

Mine tonight said No more. I was tired and pissed. Out of my last 13 weeks, this is the 2nd time i've left down 400. which is Ok, because I play in a long term frame, like zach said.
So even though this week starts off -400, i'm confident i can grind back the next few days and finish the week in the positives.

I'll presume this is an excerpt from your blog, w/o actually reading either.

*kisses*

ps: You aren't Spademan's joke account, are you?

[Royal_Tour]

I'll presume this is an excerpt from your blog, w/o actually reading either.

*kisses*

ps: You aren't Spademan's joke account, are you?

no, wrong on both counts.

and it sounds like ur stealing my material and putting your own twist on it. are you that bitter at the world now? You shoulda used a better account than Spades. I love spades, i'd hug his nutz all day if i could.

[Actuary]

no, wrong on both counts.

and it sounds like ur stealing my material and putting your own twist on it. are you that bitter at the world now? You shoulda used a better account than Spades. I love spades, i'd hug his nutz all day if i could.

I like Spademan too. I know you love him.
He's a cooler version of you, that's why I wondered if he uses your account for a jo -.

ah nm.
I'm just breaking balls/.

I was using sarcastic humour before you were potty trained.

and yes, I'm bitter, although that was not the motivation for the jab.

[bigstack1980]

Doesnt matter if they are the first time on poker table, donkey eared playing fools.... if its not your night its not your night no matter if you are the phil ivey of the table.... Know to trust your gut and when its time to leave its best to leave...

[Zelphade]

One problem that i have is that i dont have any quit in me, even when the cards are running my way. I dont mean that i stay and go broke i mean that i stay when im catching no hands at all. If i could learn to get up it would help tremendously...

[DrZoidberg]

I guess it depends, sometimes if I take a really bad beat I'll just quit, but If I get my money in good and loose a lot of time I'll let it roll off my back and jump in another tourney, I don't play ring games very much, so the pathology might be completely different.

[jmbreslin]

I had a day like this yesterday. I went home from work early b/c I wasn't feeling well and decided to take the opportunity to play an afternoon of poker. I think I played 7 SnGs total, some STT some MTT, and busted out in all of them. I've been on a bit of a cold run as is lately so this just magnified it. I kept telling myself, "it's bad cards and worse beats, I just have to play through it." The problem, as Zach pointed out in his first post, was that my play was being subconsciously affected - I wasn't putting the appropriate amount of thought into my decisions, I made a very loose call in one of them that crippled me, my confidence dropped, and I realized that it was feeding my bad run. Yes the cards were cold, but I can also admit that I wasn't concentrating like I should have been and I can point to a few major bad plays.

Bottom line: There comes a point in a session where you have to accept that things are not going well and staying at the table(s) only increases the risk of sliding further down the bad run slope. Step away, clear your head, and refocus for next time.