15 replies to this topic

[otnemem]

10-20 10-handed at poker room. I've only been at the table for twenty minutes or so, so no real reads. Button seems somewhat solid, BB is a total fish. Two hands ago he cold called two bets with 7-8o, and raised the turn on a A-8-2-4 board (raiser called with J-J and held up). I learned two important lessons in this one hand. Anway, to the hand....Folded to me in MP with 7d-9d. I limp, button raises, BB calls, I call. Three to the flop, for 3.25 BB. Flop: Kd-Jd-xBB checks, I check, Button bets, BB raises, I call (??First mistake??), Button calls.Turn: Kd-Jd-x-10dBeautiful. I make the flush, and have two outs to the straight flush. BB checks, I bet, Button calls, BB calls.River: Kd-Jd-x-10d-KcGrrr.... Jacks, tens, kings all have me stomped now. KJ, which I suspected of the BB also murders me. There's also the ace high flush, but doesn't seem to be a factor, as I think there would have been a raise on the turn somewhere.BB checks, I check, Button bets, and before I can consider a call, BB raises. Easy fold?

[wrto4556]

MP what? MP1...MP2....orMP3?Anyway, I think you can fold this preflop. Open limping is horrible, imo.I like the call on the flop. Your draw is big, so you don't want to shut out the button.Turn is fine.River was all ****ed up. Bet it!

[otnemem]

I forgot to mention, MP limps with medium suited connectors = biggest leak in my game...But it doesn't really matter what MP position it was, because I'm obviously not asking for preflop advice...And I will have to politely disagree with your guidance thus far. I think betting one of the only scare cards is a terrible mistake.

[wrto4556]

otnemem said:

I forgot to mention, MP limps with medium suited connectors = biggest leak in my game...But it doesn't really matter what MP position it was, because I'm obviously not asking for preflop advice...And I will have to politely disagree with your guidance thus far. I think betting one of the only scare cards is a terrible mistake.

So you would rather have AQ and K9 take it down because you are too scared to bet your hand?

[otnemem]

wrto4556 said:

otnemem said:

I forgot to mention, MP limps with medium suited connectors = biggest leak in my game...But it doesn't really matter what MP position it was, because I'm obviously not asking for preflop advice...And I will have to politely disagree with your guidance thus far. I think betting one of the only scare cards is a terrible mistake.

So you would rather have AQ and K9 take it down because you are too scared to bet your hand?

Umm... I've been playing cards for a long time, so don't try to paint it like I'm a dickless twat. I didn't say I was going to check and fold. I think a check call might be in order. The way the hand happened to go, I felt there was absolutely no chance that my flush would hold up. A river check raise on a paired board... not to mention that if it's three bet behind me I would have to fold to one more big bet after calling two...Here are rational options:Bet, fold to raise. Check, call bet.Check, fold to two bets.Check, call two bets, call one or two more when it comes around again. Which do you like most? Believe it or not, there is instinct in limit HE. My original thought was that BB has top two, and was protecting with the CR.EDIT: Oh yeah, if you don't have the ability to bet and fold that river, maybe you should drop limits...

[wrto4556]

You said BB plays anything. Im not letting him push me out of the pot with his K-rag. He raised the turn on an A862 board. I think your options are tainted. You're giving him too much credit.

[KDawgCometh]

I think you have to fold it for two cold there. The BB cred the flop of which you called, so you basically told him yes, I am drawing here and probably to the flush instead of the straight. Now given that the BB is a total fish we can assume that the CR came with Kings up on the flop as most fish are too scared to CR just top pair. The turn you fully announced your flush by betting it. A massive scare card comes on the river and the BB CRs this again. If it was just the BB involved here a call would be fine, but what we have to possibly worry about is being smoked in two places here, the BB and the button, since he was the PF raiser it wouldn't be absurd to think he's the one with KJ and would 3bet the BB in which you are now trapped if you call two cold, or that the Button has JJ and was waiting to see if a safe turn card came for him to pop it. since that didn't happen he called since he would have a good ampunt of Quad/boat outs going into the river. Why else would he bet that river given that the BB had already CRed this on the flop if the paired King was a scare card for him. I think you gotta fold

[wrto4556]

otnemem said:

I think a check call might be in order. The way the hand happened to go, I felt there was absolutely no chance that my flush would hold up.

This is horrible. Do you see why?If either of your opponents are thinking players button and BB have a wider range than top-two.Button isolates a loose mid position open limper. AA-66, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, KQ, KJ, KT, QJs, QTs.....lots of hands. The button (an uber donk) calls from the big blind. Go figure!Flop. KdJdxc. BB checks to the button and raises....KQ, QT, KJ, AK, KT, AT, QJ....(you posted saying he does strange things). You call.Turn Td[KdJdcx]. You bet. Everyone calls, your bet could be Adxc, JT, lots more than just the flush.River Kc. BB checks, you bet. If button smooth calls and the BB raises it's an *easy* call concidering his play with 87o!!! If you bet, button raises, and BB 3-bets, it's a pretty good fold, even though I still punch the cat because BB is a retard. By checking you are giving the oppertunity to be pushed off of what is likely to be the best hand because BB is an overaggressive retard.

[otnemem]

wrto4556 said:

otnemem said:

I think a check call might be in order. The way the hand happened to go, I felt there was absolutely no chance that my flush would hold up.

This is horrible. Do you see why?If either of your opponents are thinking players button and BB have a wider range than top-two.Button isolates a loose mid position open limper. AA-66, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, KQ, KJ, KT, QJs, QTs.....lots of hands. The button (an uber donk) calls from the big blind. Go figure!Flop. KdJdxc. BB checks to the button and raises....KQ, QT, KJ, AK, KT, AT, QJ....(you posted saying he does strange things). You call.Turn Td[KdJdcx]. You bet. Everyone calls, your bet could be Adxc, JT, lots more than just the flush.River Kc. BB checks, you bet. If button smooth calls and the BB raises it's an *easy* call concidering his play with 87o!!! If you bet, button raises, and BB 3-bets, it's a pretty good fold, even though I still punch the cat because BB is a retard. By checking you are giving the oppertunity to be pushed off of what is likely to be the best hand because BB is an overaggressive retard.

I agree with you in parts, but still don't find it horrible. Button is not uber-donk. BB is uber-donk. Button being an aware player, I don't like facing a raise from him, as I feel this is most often a hand that beats me...

[wrto4556]

Quote

Button being an aware player, I don't like facing a raise from him, as I feel this is most often a hand that beats me.

That's why you shouldn't open limp with mid suited connectors. Especially with a TAG on the button. You might as well raise yourself because if the button is smart, he's going to with any two cards.So what happened?Im a result junky.

[otnemem]

Quote

Im a result junky.

As am I. In due time, grasshopper.

[wrto4556]

otnemem said:

Quote

Im a result junky.

As am I. In due time, grasshopper.

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :x

[otnemem]

Okay, okay...As it turns out I did give BB too much credit (nice read), but nevertheless, I had something to worry about from the Button, that crafty fella'. Thank God I had the donk in the BB to question my holding by check raising with his K-Qo (no diamonds) and get away from the Ad-Qd in the hands of the Button. He smooth called my bet with the royal flush on the turn (good position for him). This definitely wasn't a results based decision on my part, that it was a good fold. Here was my thinking - I think the Button interpretated my bet on the turn perfectly, and if he had something like KK, JJ, KJ, he would have crying called me down. I don't think he would have been stupid enough to bet the river if he wasn't far ahead, because he'd probably know I'm not mucking a flush without a good reason to do so...So although my read was off (I was beat, just not by a boat), it was ultimately the correct fold.

[wrto4556]

Sneaky bastard. Lord have mercy my hand selection was right on.AQ and K9...too bad it was a straightflush not just a straight....and KQ instead of K9. :?

[otnemem]

You see how I was sort of playing devil's advocate? You were dead on...I will admit that my happiness is a tad bit results oriented, because...had I led the river and was raised by the button, and the bb cold called two, I would have had to call. If the bb three-bets, I drop it and lose a bb on the river. If he just calls, I call another so that's two bbs... Based on results, I'm glad I played so passively, but I do think betting is probably the best option on the river. I had an instinctual urge to check and muck here, though I was entirely surprised to see the hand he had...

[KDawgCometh]

the button being in teh hand was my main concern too. I put him on a boat, but I didn't rule out a royal either, wow. if it wasn't for the button I would've been inclined to call teh donk, as donks are well donks. Its always the other guy in the hand you have to worry about