5 replies to this topic

[jayboogie]

OK, I posted this in the Tournament Section as well, but figured I'd get more responses in here most likely, so yeah I'm looking for some opinions on this hand. I'll post the results later after getting some responses. This was a 4 table tournament and it's down to the last 2 tables with about 15 players left, 8 at mine and Top 7 Pays out. The payout structure was more favouring for the top 3 and I always play to win a tournament, so I was gunning for the win. Anyways, so I have about 16000 in chips, the blinds are at 1000-2000, so I'm really shortstacked and I'm just thinking about pushing all-in every hand that I do play, but I pick up J9 spades in middle position and this table has not been very aggressive, not too much raising unless they have a legit hand, so I decide to see a flop with this hand and limp in, surprisingly 3 other players behind me limp as well, small blind folds and big blind checks. The flop comes out K Q 6 with 2 spades and of course I really like this flop as I have a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw, so 12 outs, big blind checks it to me and I"m contemplating how much to bet here as I want a shot at taking down the pot right here if I can. I decide to bet 3000, so I could get players to fold their hands unless they had something and I was planning on pushing on the turn hit/miss if my opponent just called on the flop. All 3 players behind me muck, but the big blind re-raises me all-in. The big blind has the biggest stack at the table and seemed to have a bullying type image, but was a fairly solid player and I felt he had 2 pair most likely. So, basically I'm stuck thinking at this point as I have about 11000 in chips and with the blinds at 1000-2000, my prospects don't look good if I were to fold my hand. Did I really want to gamble with the flush and gutshot draw? I figured I was about 40% to hit here and knew I was a dog to anything the guy had unless it was a stone cold bluff, which was unlikely. I started to look at how much was in the pot and it was about 25000, so I was getting 2.5:1 on my money, mathematically, you only needed to win the hand about 70/30 dog to make this call, but of course there are other factors to consider such as your tournament life being at stake. With all this information do you make the call here? comments such as whether limping in with J9 of spades is the right play in the first place? I considered pushing all-in and trying to take the blinds as well, but decided to try and hit a flop hard with the hand, this was kind of borderline as I could have just as easily folded the hand as well, but I took into consideration that I was shortstacked and needed to do something soon. So, post some responses and I'll post the results a lil later.

[cdddc75]

Once you put the 3k in on the flop, you're committed to the hand.I don't think limping in is horrible, but I'm not a fan of committing yourself to a draw (even a good one) when you can try to check and get another card to fill a draw.

[gobears]

Since you said the table was not very aggressive - I would have pushed pre-flop with only 8x BB left in my stack. You limped in and the flop was a good one - I would have pushed at that point also to try to take the pot right there.The flop probably hit the BB in some way too although if I were him, I'd be wondering why you didn't push and would be thinking trap. Then again, maybe he senses weakness and is trying to take the pot right there.With your short stack and draws to the flush and straight, I think that you have to call.

[akishore]

listen people, stop differentiating so much between made hands and draws. you have to think only in terms of equity, and how likely it is that you'll win at showdown.limping in was fine pre-flop.on the flop, you have to assume that all your outs are clean. so you have 12 outs to a gutshot and flush, and you'll win the hand around 45% of the time.when it's checked to you, i would have just pushed. hopefully you'll take the pot down, and even if you're called (maybe even by more than one person), you leave yourself a lot of outs and are getting a good equity edge (since there is also dead money in the pot).i really disliked the 3000 bet when it's checked to you. with five others in the pot, the pot was 10k, and you bet3k?? that's barely over the minimum bet.regardless, when you got checkraised, this is an easy call.call any day of the week, and twice on sunday.aseem

[jayboogie]

Ok, thanks for the responses guys, I'll just come out with what happened, probably not much of a surprise really. I'm still debating whether I played the hand ok or not. I felt I didn't play the hand as well as I could. Limping was not too bad, the flop bet is where I'm sure it's debatable about the bet amount. Players were folding to bets when they missed the flop for the most part and nobody was really bluffing. The thing was I didn't think anybody hit the flop too well. I wanted to bet an amount where other players would call perhaps with top pair weak kicker, middle pair, something like that with the intention of pushing on the turn whether I hit or miss the draw. I wanted to try and extract some chips with a strong drawing hand. I did not want to bet something like 5000 or more, get called and have the player that calls me committed to the pot when I push in on the turn, because if I miss on the turn and get called, I'm not in good shape with 1 card to come. I felt that by betting 3000, I would not neccessarily be committed to the hand and could get out of the hand if I needed to, basically leaving myself an out. I would also manipulate the pot so that my opponent wouldn't feel he needed to call either unless he had a strong hand. Also, I was playing against some fairly experienced players and the 3000 bet looks like one that wants a call, especially from a shortstack. That was my thinking during the hand, but I also think that I could have pushed all-in on the flop as well and tried to just pick up the pot right there, probably the easier thing to do as the short stacked, just get your money in the pot and hope to take it down. I didn't choose this option though, but you could make a strong case for doing it. Results wise, it would have made no difference though, because if I had bet 5000 or pushed all-in, I was still getting called or re-raised all-in by the big blind. Of course what ended up happening was, I do the math in my head and it's mathematically an easy call, but I'm not the type of player that likes to risk my tournament life on a draw, but I decided that I needed to make the call to have a chance to win the tournament, so I made it. The big Blind turns up K 6 offsuit for 2 pair, hits a 6 on the turn for a boat and I'm drawing dead and knocked out of the tournament.The thing about tournaments is 1 or 2 hands determines your fate, a few hands before this, I was cruising with 40000 in chips, 2nd most at the table, before my pocket Kings get cracked by AQ all-in pre-flop, I raised, got re-raised all-in and of course called. Had I won this pot, I'd been chip leader at the table and been able to easily avoid this situation. So, instead of bumping up my stack to 60, 000, it drops down to 20, 000 and I'm forced into this situation. This is the exact reason why I'm not a big fan of tournaments, you can play mistake free and still usually come out short, whereas in a cash game, this doesn't usually happen, at least not as much.This was actually my 1st big live Tournament though and it had a pretty big prize pool. I typically don't play many live tournaments and the buy-in was $300 for this one, so all in all it was a good experience to have and besides I horsed my friend 5% who won the whole thing, so I still turned a small profit =D