18 replies to this topic

[cwik]

Villian is 32/8.3/0.92, pretty rocky with a semiloose preflop range, not too many hands. Hit my gin card, on a beautiful rainbow board and am getting action. anyways whats my play here? I was thinking villain can't really call a shoval without the 9, and vs the 9 we are probably gonna get it all in anyways.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $2/$46 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $583.50UTG+1: $400CO: $374.95Button: $446.50Hero: $631.55BB: $400Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T 9 3 folds, Button raises to $14, Hero calls, BB calls.Flop: 6 8 5 ($42, 3 players)Hero bets $25, BB folds, Button calls.Turn: 7 ($92, 2 players)Hero bets $50, Button raises to $100, Hero ???

[Lavitz]

Push. This is almost never a bluff and if he got tricky with a set on the flop and we cold call we give him a chance to boat up at a free cost. Also, we can't extract much value if his set doesn't improve to a boat on river anyways. He's going to call with a 9, which is what he has usually, and sometimes call with a set. Either value reraise or push but never call.

[Merby]

Lavitz, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 1:12 AM, said:

Push. This is almost never a bluff and if he got tricky with a set on the flop and we cold call we give him a chance to boat up at a free cost. Also, we can't extract much value if his set doesn't improve to a boat on river anyways. He's going to call with a 9, which is what he has usually, and sometimes call with a set. Either value reraise or push but never call.

+1

[litlebullet]

Lavitz, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 12:12 AM, said:

Push. This is almost never a bluff and if he got tricky with a set on the flop and we cold call we give him a chance to boat up at a free cost. Also, we can't extract much value if his set doesn't improve to a boat on river anyways. He's going to call with a 9, which is what he has usually, and sometimes call with a set. Either value reraise or push but never call.

I actually thought about typing this but was too lazy. Maybe I'm becoming a better poker player. /thread.

[Zach6668]

If he would have just listened to wtf I said in our AIM conversation, he would have never posted this thread.Therefore, I'm > All.

[Jordan]

def. dont call...raise/shove, obv as others said.- Jordan

[DrawingDeadInDM]

Raise to 150. Trust me.

[Acid_Knight]

Raise another $125 on top of his bet. That way, the pot will be HUGE by the river and he'll only have $175 or so left. He'll probably push right here if he has 9x. He hopefully doesn't have it in him to fold if he has the ass end of the straight. If he's got a set, well, he's got problems then.

[mtdesmoines]

cwik, on Wednesday, July 11th, 2007, 11:49 PM, said:

Villian is 32/8.3/0.92, pretty rocky with a semiloose preflop range, not too many hands. Hit my gin card, on a beautiful rainbow board and am getting action. anyways whats my play here? I was thinking villain can't really call a shoval without the 9, and vs the 9 we are probably gonna get it all in anyways.Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $2/$46 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $583.50UTG+1: $400CO: $374.95Button: $446.50Hero: $631.55BB: $400Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T 9 3 folds, Button raises to $14, Hero calls, BB calls.Flop: 6 8 5 ($42, 3 players)Hero bets $25, BB folds, Button calls.Turn: 7 ($92, 2 players)Hero bets $50, Button raises to $100, Hero ???

Smooth call or min-raise, and get more action on the river. Here's why:Like everyone else said, only a 9 can proceed with the hand if you shove, and a nine is shoving almost any river anyway, so we'll be ready and waiting for him there. But I don't think this is a nine. He didn't raise $14 PF with a nine unless it's a pair of nines, and if that's the case, we just laid a nasty on him. The only hand that will beat us on the river that he could be holding that we're folding out by shoving this turn is two pair, and two pair only has 4 outs anyway. We don't need to shovel to kill/dodge a hand htat's looking for four outs. Conversely, if he has a set, he's likely not folding the turn; likewise we aren't folding our straight on the river even if the board pairs, so pushing to protect only protects us against two pair, unlikely with the PF raise, and the odds of the hand getting ahead of us is a distant threat anyway.Smooth call or min raise.

[Lavitz]

mtdesmoines, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 8:33 AM, said:

Smooth call or min-raise, and get more action on the river. Here's why:Like everyone else said, only a 9 can proceed with the hand if you shove, and a nine is shoving almost any river anyway, so we'll be ready and waiting for him there. But I don't think this is a nine. He didn't raise $14 PF with a nine unless it's a pair of nines, and if that's the case, we just laid a nasty on him. The only hand that will beat us on the river that he could be holding that we're folding out by shoving this turn is two pair, and two pair only has 4 outs anyway. We don't need to shovel to kill/dodge a hand htat's looking for four outs. Conversely, if he has a set, he's likely not folding the turn; likewise we aren't folding our straight on the river even if the board pairs, so pushing to protect only protects us against two pair, unlikely with the PF raise, and the odds of the hand getting ahead of us is a distant threat anyway.Smooth call or min raise.

You said only a 9 can proceed with the hand but then say if he has a set he's likely not folding? Whatever you meant, I personally have seen plenty of people call raises/pushes with sets here after slowplaying them on the flop. It's because generally they're bad players and they shouldn't be slowplaying sets on flops like that in the first place.Also, a 9 might not shove the river if the board pairs when he is checked too. Why? Because the only hands that are calling any bet on that board once it pairs are full houses, better straights, or hands he splits with (other 9's).Also, this is 6 handed and a 9 is very much in his range. If we call we basically screw ourselves on the river because we act first and if we check, he checks anything but a 9 on a non paired board and bets his house if the board pairs. If WE bet river he folds sets unless board pairs and even if he has a 9 and the board doesn't pair he calls in most cases instead of pushing over our bet(once again for same reason, anything that calls his push he splits with or loses too).We have to raise turn.

[sabes99]

the flop bet is unnecessary imo, you could c/c and get a free oneas played, i like just calling the turn and betting about $150 on the river

[cwik]

sabes99, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 1:36 PM, said:

the flop bet is unnecessary imo, you could c/c and get a free oneas played, i like just calling the turn and betting about $150 on the river

I'm not c/c'ing the flop with a gut straight draw, if I'm putting anymore money in this pot I'm taking the lead. Anyways, as played, how likely is it the villain has a 9 here? His range is fairly big I suppose raising on the button, but is he really floating here with a gut straight draw? 98s I can see, but not a whole lot else (A9 K9?).

[nomad_monad]

sabes99, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 1:36 PM, said:

the flop bet is unnecessary imo, you could c/c and get a free oneas played, i like just calling the turn and betting about $150 on the river

too transparent. these lines minimize value when we nut it and cause us to dump off chips to a floater quite often when we don't.

cwik, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 3:18 PM, said:

Anyways, as played, how likely is it the villain has a 9 here? His range is fairly big I suppose raising on the button, but is he really floating here with a gut straight draw? 98s I can see, but not a whole lot else (A9 K9?).

i'd toss in 69 and maybe J9 as well.

[sabes99]

cwik, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 2:18 PM, said:

I'm not c/c'ing the flop with a gut straight draw, if I'm putting anymore money in this pot I'm taking the lead. Anyways, as played, how likely is it the villain has a 9 here? His range is fairly big I suppose raising on the button, but is he really floating here with a gut straight draw? 98s I can see, but not a whole lot else (A9 K9?).

i think c/c is an option but of course it depends on the size of the bet as well, you could expect to have 7 outs on this flop which means you can call pretty much any bet that isn't really oversized...but the main point was that i feel like the flop bet wasn't really necessary, and actually was a little riskyi think he could have the straight, but the narrow possibilities for him to have it are why i suggest just flat-calling...also, there is no potential flush draw, so he's dead in this hand unless he happens to have a set or two pair, which are both extremely unlikely given the raise on the turn

[sabes99]

nomad_monad, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 2:44 PM, said:

too transparent. these lines minimize value when we nut it and cause us to dump off chips to a floater quite often when we don't.i'd toss in 69 and maybe J9 as well.

well again, i guess c/c on the flop does depend on bet size, folding to a bet more than the pot would obv be better than calling, but again we expect to have 7 outs in most cases...and i can see how we minimize value when catching the straight on the turn, but i think c/c or c/f is better than leading into this board, and there's a chance that by calling, we can see two cards for free, if we freeze him on the turn

[nomad_monad]

sabes99, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 3:51 PM, said:

well again, i guess c/c on the flop does depend on bet size, folding to a bet more than the pot would obv be better than calling, but again we expect to have 7 outs in most cases...and i can see how we minimize value when catching the straight on the turn, but i think c/c or c/f is better than leading into this board, and there's a chance that by calling, we can see two cards for free, if we freeze him on the turn

1) We don't close the action on the flop. BB needs a hand to kick us out of the pot if we lead. He doesn't if we flat call a likely button cbet.2) Seeing two cards to a gutter for cheap when it's not likely to get paid if we hit isn't as valuable as the flop fold equity + deception payoff value if we lead. Plus if we miss, we're probably going to get picked off a lot on the river if we bluff.

[cwik]

I don't mind the c/f and I can even see times where the c/r would be an option, (I think I am check/folding this flop 60%, leading 35%, c/r 5%). However I will never ever never c/c this flop. Thats what we call in the business spewing. ANYWAYS.I think this is the most frustrating hand I have played in a LONG time. I've said it once and I'll say it again, when a villain min reraises, they have it. Always. I needed to shove the turn.As played, I thought for a long time, took a shot of FPS, and smooth called, planing on check/raising the river (this is a bad idea on so many levels). River came a disgusting 8 to pair the board, I went into c/c mode, but he checked behind and flipped up A9. ewwwwwwww. I left $300 sitting on the table. I won a decent pot, but I can not get this hand out of my mind. I was seeing if there was any reasonable chance that maybe my play wasn't 100% awful, but definitely does not look the case. Isuckaments.

[Lavitz]

cwik, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 3:26 PM, said:

I don't mind the c/f and I can even see times where the c/r would be an option, (I think I am check/folding this flop 60%, leading 35%, c/r 5%). However I will never ever never c/c this flop. Thats what we call in the business spewing. ANYWAYS.I think this is the most frustrating hand I have played in a LONG time. I've said it once and I'll say it again, when a villain min reraises, they have it. Always. I needed to shove the turn.As played, I thought for a long time, took a shot of FPS, and smooth called, planing on check/raising the river (this is a bad idea on so many levels). River came a disgusting 8 to pair the board, I went into c/c mode, but he checked behind and flipped up A9. ewwwwwwww. I left $300 sitting on the table. I won a decent pot, but I can not get this hand out of my mind. I was seeing if there was any reasonable chance that maybe my play wasn't 100% awful, but definitely does not look the case. Isuckaments.

At least you recognize what you did wrong. Like I said, he checks behind that river because there's really no value to be extracted from his point of view and if he gets c/r he has to find a tough fold. Usually just play your big hands straightforward and let people make mistakes with 2nd best hands.

[whiterice714]

Lavitz, on Thursday, July 12th, 2007, 11:54 AM, said:

You said only a 9 can proceed with the hand but then say if he has a set he's likely not folding? Whatever you meant, I personally have seen plenty of people call raises/pushes with sets here after slowplaying them on the flop. It's because generally they're bad players and they shouldn't be slowplaying sets on flops like that in the first place.Also, a 9 might not shove the river if the board pairs when he is checked too. Why? Because the only hands that are calling any bet on that board once it pairs are full houses, better straights, or hands he splits with (other 9's).Also, this is 6 handed and a 9 is very much in his range. If we call we basically screw ourselves on the river because we act first and if we check, he checks anything but a 9 on a non paired board and bets his house if the board pairs. If WE bet river he folds sets unless board pairs and even if he has a 9 and the board doesn't pair he calls in most cases instead of pushing over our bet(once again for same reason, anything that calls his push he splits with or loses too).We have to raise turn.