A Van Down By The River.

[Royal_Tour 0]

1/2NL live.I had flopped a set of jacks about 10 hands prior to this hand. I raised to 10 preflop. got 4 callers and 1 all in for 9 dollars. flop was J,x,x and I made a bet, no one had any piece at all. all folded and everyone saw how i played the set vs the all in.NowHero, 300villain 500 - He is a regular, plays decent. thats all i really know of himhero is SB with J,J.4 limps, hero raise to 12. 2 folds, 2 calls.flop is 3c,4c,4dhero bet 25. 1 fold. villain call 25. - now he could be holding a med PP. a draw, or 4,x which is possible since he limped from LP (lots of 4,5 ,46 A4 calls @ live 1/2NL)turn Js.Hero check. (Now i'm hoping he can catch up a little, and might put me on AK or 99,10,10 type holdings)villain bet 25. (My thinking here is he thinks i'm weak, and he's on a FD with 2 overs, or holds a weak 4. His bet is small, so its not much of a semi bluff unless i hold AK or other air. His bet could also indicate a 4, which he believes is the best hand right now.hero callriver 8h. No draw has been complete. Hero check. (i gambled a bit here. I went with my instincts that he will bet this river if i check. I could lead out and rep a busted draw trying to steal. but i lose him if he has a busted draw. I only get paid by a 4,x. And this player is "decent enough" to think about my check/call turn lead out river bet as weak, or also as strength. He would start to piece the puzzle together.If he was on a big draw, he knows he cant call a bet, and can only try and steal this pot if i show weakness.this was my thinking for his range througout this hand.If i could successfully put him on a 4,x I'm torn between leading the river, or checking. I think if i lead out, he might still come over the top with a 4.any thoughts on all this??

[mtdesmoines 2]

1/2NL live. any thoughts on all this??

$1/2 NL live ... any 4 is doubling you up. I lead out here.

[sabes99 0]

i like the way you played it...if he has a 4 he's going to double you up anyways, and if he had a draw he might bet out at it for you as you said, so i like the river play, and the play of the hand overall

[Royal_Tour 0]

$1/2 NL live ... any 4 is doubling you up. I lead out here.

please, read the post and think as you go along. try and imagine yourself at this table with this hand.I think you can do better than an assumption. So lets lead out cuz a 4 will double us up.why not put him on 8,8 for no logical reason. just cuz 8,8 will double us up also, so we should lead out.?comon, u took 2 mins since this was posted to post your response. did u even really think much about your response?

[Merby 3]

I suggest asking a motivational speaker. Try asking Matt Foley.Ok, with that obligatory sidebar out of the way...If you put him on the busted draw, then checking the river is the only reasonable hope of getting more money from him. Of course, if he does have a 4, then the safe river will mean he definitely bets into you, and here's your opportunity to trap him for his stack.If he has a med PP, then you missed some value by not betting the river, but that's the sacrifice you're making here.

[NoSup4U 0]

Or you could ask his son:Royal, I would lead the river. What can villian have here?I'd say a pp lower than Jacks, a 4, A3, QJ/KJ/TJsooted, or a semi bluff on the turn just thinking you missed and he could fold you out. So really your decision is, is it more likely he is bluffing the turn, or has a made hand? I think the made hands are more likely so I'd lead out.Mark

[David_Nicoson 1]

Q:How much can we get out of a villain with 77?A:Who cares? Most of our potential income comes from a draw or a 4 here. Not much of it comes from a hand that can't beat or outdraw a jack. (The villain probably checks behind a lot of hands worse than a jack, I think.) I think the check is OK on the turn, but I think a check-raise is in order. The story we want to tell the villain with a 4 or a draw is that we have an overpair or AJ.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Royal, I would lead the river. What can villian have here?I'd say a pp lower than Jacks, a 4, A3, QJ/KJ/TJsooted, or a semi bluff on the turn just thinking you missed and he could fold you out. So really your decision is, is it more likely he is bluffing the turn, or has a made hand? I think the made hands are more likely so I'd lead out.Mark

I tried very hard to use multi level thinking in this hand. I attempted to list hands that villain would put me on, while i put him on hands etc.. and considering the way i played the last set of jacks, i tried to make this look like a draw. Villain has no reason to believe i would try and buy this pot with a missed draw, so i hoped he would make a big bet, and i could make a value raise.

[NoSup4U 0]

Most of our potential income comes from a draw or a 4 here. Not much of it comes from a hand that can't beat or outdraw a jack. (The villain probably checks behind a lot of hands worse than a jack, I think.) I think the check is OK, but I think a check-raise is in order. The story we want to tell the villain with a 4 or a draw is that we have an overpair or AJ.

Are you talking about the turn or the river? If I'm villian with a 4 here on the river and i get check raised, I fold unless opponent is bad. Nobody should be check raising AJ or an overpair here on river.Mark

[NoSup4U 0]

I tried very hard to use multi level thinking in this hand. I attempted to list hands that villain would put me on, while i put him on hands etc.. and considering the way i played the last set of jacks, i tried to make this look like a draw. Villain has no reason to believe i would try and buy this pot with a missed draw, so i hoped he would make a big bet, and i could make a value raise.

Yup. I like the thinking. But its hard for villan to call a raise on that river without a boat. Like, you'll never get called on your value raise, except maybe by a 4, but then a 4 would have raised you if you bet anyway. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I"m explaining myself well.At best if you check, you get some value from a pure bluff. But that bluff isn't calling a raise. Most other made hands check behind, and even if they bet for some reason, they don't call a raise. And they would have just called your bet anyway.Thats my thinking at least. I could be off, but thats how I'd play it.Mark

[Royal_Tour 0]

right. I definitely think you're correct here. after the hand was over i started to think about the hand as if it was posted in strat.but while i was in the hand, i needed to act quickly, and if he is capable of making a bluff bet if checked too thats an extra little value for me. since the only hands that would call or raise my river lead is a Big J, a 4. maybe a PP/a PP wont raise, and a Big J wont raise. so only a 4 raises my river lead. But all those hands make a bet if i check. right?

[David_Nicoson 1]

Are you talking about the turn or the river? If I'm villian with a 4 here on the river and i get check raised, I fold unless opponent is bad. Nobody should be check raising AJ or an overpair here on river.Mark

I meant the turn. I actually edited my post but a little late. And yeah, I agree. The gig's kinda up if we flat call the microbet on the turn and then suddenly wake up and check-raise the river. We don't seem worried about giving a good price to a draw, so that tells the opponent we've already filled up when he looks at both streets, imho.

[pokerplayer24 0]

Are you talking about the turn or the river? If I'm villian with a 4 here on the river and i get check raised, I fold unless opponent is bad. Nobody should be check raising AJ or an overpair here on river.Mark

Bad or really good.I think i'd lead the turn. As played I probably cr the turn to 70 in hopes he decides to see a card with a draw or get stubborn with a mid pp.

[mtdesmoines 2]

please, read the post and think as you go along. try and imagine yourself at this table with this hand.I think you can do better than an assumption. So lets lead out cuz a 4 will double us up.why not put him on 8,8 for no logical reason. just cuz 8,8 will double us up also, so we should lead out.?comon, u took 2 mins since this was posted to post your response. did u even really think much about your response?

Scolded. I hate being scolded. I had flopped a set of jacks about 10 hands prior to this hand. I raised to 10 preflop. got 4 callers and 1 all in for 9 dollars. flop was J,x,x and I made a bet, no one had any piece at all. all folded and everyone saw how i played the set vs the all in. Now Hero, 300, villain 500 - Alright. This is immaterial.He is a regular, plays decent. thats all i really know of him We can assume that villain is not stacking off easy.hero is SB with J,J.4 limps, hero raise to 12. 2 folds, 2 calls. You could be doing this from SB with a lot of hands. So your hand is well-disguised PF. flop is 3c,4c,4dhero bet 25. 1 fold. villain call 25. - now he could be holding a med PP. a draw, or 4,x which is possible since he limped from LP (lots of 4,5 ,46 A4 calls @ live 1/2NL) Flop is total garbage for most raised PF hands, but you act on it anyway. Tells villains you're strong or have hit nothing. One villain calls, when he had limped PF. What's his connection with the board? Likely, it's clubs, rather than a straight draw. I don't know that a 4 gets to see this flop. Also, we don't know if one of your Js is a club. Could be pertinent.turn Js.Hero check. (Now i'm hoping he can catch up a little, and might put me on AK or 99,10,10 type holdings)villain bet 25. (My thinking here is he thinks i'm weak, and he's on a FD with 2 overs, or holds a weak 4. His bet is small, so its not much of a semi bluff unless i hold AK or other air. His bet could also indicate a 4, which he believes is the best hand right now.hero callAround $80 in the pot here, this card almost COULD NOT have hit villain, and he short bets $25 in to the turn? Why? A flush draw would pump more money than $25 into the pot, trying to take it down, right? Did AJ hit? If so, why didn't AJ raise PF?river 8h. No draw has been complete. Hero check. (i gambled a bit here. I went with my instincts that he will bet this river if i check. I could lead out and rep a busted draw trying to steal. but i lose him if he has a busted draw. I only get paid by a 4,x. And this player is "decent enough" to think about my check/call turn lead out river bet as weak, or also as strength. He would start to piece the puzzle together.If he was on a big draw, he knows he cant call a bet, and can only try and steal this pot if i show weakness.this was my thinking for his range througout this hand.If i could successfully put him on a 4,x I'm torn between leading the river, or checking. I think if i lead out, he might still come over the top with a 4.any thoughts on all this??Right. No draw completes. But I don't think a draw is what you're working against. And there was no raise or re-raise PF, so you really can't put villain on range of AA-QQ. This almost has to be some sort of suited ace or pocket tens in play here. I don't think the broken flush draw is going to bet into you, since it bet so lame on the turn. It's giving up anyway on the river since you called the turn. You already told them you had something with the turn call. They told you they had something with the turn bet. I think you lead and see what calls.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Your logic on the turn is screwed up. If you think he's got a draw, you need to check raise NOW, since if he is drawing and he misses, you won't be able to get more chips. You made a good play by checking, but you're supposed to raise when he bets.For all of the reasons outlined above, unless you really think he's got 4x or a busted draw, then there's no reason to check the river. It's unlikely he has the case J, so he probably can't beat top pair most of the time. Most of his range is made up of middle pairs and busted draws. He won't bet the middle pair on the river and he's sometimes gonna give up on those draws.As played, I'd lead the river for like $70 or something like that and let him try to figure things out.The more optimal line IMO is to c/r the turn and make him pay for his draws.

[fckthis 0]

On the turn, you can lead, or c/r, but c/c, just screws up your line for the river.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Your logic on the turn is screwed up. If you think he's got a draw, you need to check raise NOW, since if he is drawing and he misses, you won't be able to get more chips. You made a good play by checking, but you're supposed to raise when he bets.The more optimal line IMO is to c/r the turn and make him pay for his draws.

On the turn, you can lead, or c/r, but c/c, just screws up your line for the river.

My only issue with a check raise on the turn is it looks like the jack helped me. To your average player at that game, they'll wonder why they just got check raisedif you're in villains shoes, do any of you think abouit what the turn did to my hand to make me check raise?

[Royal_Tour 0]

anyways, thanks for all the feedback. I kinda knew my line was a bit skewed, but villain pushed all in when i checked.which was a complete shock.i figured he would go 75 or something. and i'd make a raise.

[mtdesmoines 2]

anyways, thanks for all the feedback. I kinda knew my line was a bit skewed, but villain pushed all in when i checked.which was a complete shock.i figured he would go 75 or something. and i'd make a raise.

I trust he didn't hold 4444?

[Royal_Tour 0]

I trust he didn't hold 4444?

No, he didnt show. even though i called his bet, i opened up right away since i see him there often.

[Acid_Knight 2]

My only issue with a check raise on the turn is it looks like the jack helped me. To your average player at that game, they'll wonder why they just got check raisedif you're in villains shoes, do any of you think abouit what the turn did to my hand to make me check raise?

It depends totally on what the villain will read into it. Some players will assign you AJo. Some will think that you're putting a move on them. Some will put you on JJ. The range of reactions to getting checkraised on a relatively harmless looking turn card is huge.

[fckthis 0]

anyways, thanks for all the feedback. I kinda knew my line was a bit skewed, but villain pushed all in when i checked.which was a complete shock.i figured he would go 75 or something. and i'd make a raise.

sweet.

[whiterice714 0]

Your logic on the turn is screwed up. If you think he's got a draw, you need to check raise NOW, since if he is drawing and he misses, you won't be able to get more chips. You made a good play by checking, but you're supposed to raise when he bets.For all of the reasons outlined above, unless you really think he's got 4x or a busted draw, then there's no reason to check the river. It's unlikely he has the case J, so he probably can't beat top pair most of the time. Most of his range is made up of middle pairs and busted draws. He won't bet the middle pair on the river and he's sometimes gonna give up on those draws.As played, I'd lead the river for like $70 or something like that and let him try to figure things out.The more optimal line IMO is to c/r the turn and make him pay for his draws.

i like raising the turn... you're OOP & going to have to bet the river first... IF -in this scenario- you're planning on betting the river at all - you should probably be c/r-ing the turn... the missed draw has the advantage being able to act last on the river & easily fold to a river bet, make that draw a lil more expensive when there's still the posibility it might hit (though it wouldn't be good in this case)... i personally probably would have bet the turn card as well, maybe something like 40-50... theres no way he could ever put you on jacks full if you did this, & it might look like a blocking bet to protect some overs w/ a flush draw etc... i feel this would prompt a raise from the 4x - giving us a chance to get it all in w/ basically the nuts- or just a flat call from a draw... if this happens the check on the river might be a lil more enticing for him to bluff @ it if he assumes you also missed your draw... on the contrary he might insta muck the turn & you lose your additional $25 value, but i think the c/c on the turn looks a lil suspicious & would IMMEDIATELY send off alarms in my head if i'm the villian... i probably shut down & wouldn't bet the river even if i hit my draw after that happened... idk, i try to look @ it from as many different perspectives as i can & analyze it as thoroughly as possible both in good & bad scenarios... i dont mind how you played it at all, i'm not criticizing your play by any means as it's obv through reading your posts you're better than i am... i just figured i'd drop my 2 cents here as this concept was recently brought to my attention by a more experienced friend of mine (regarding being OOP going to the river, you're better off raising the turn if you plan to bet the river anyways... it might get people to stick around who otherwise would fold... only matters if you're OOP & have to act first w/ no cards to come)if anyone could elaborate on this (aka point out holes in the logic) it'd be appreciated...plz refrain from ridicule... we all had to be donks @ one point, didn't we?

[Jordan 1]

once you c/c the turn you pretty much have to check that river card.just my opinion.he's betting the 4 if he has it...only thing he pays you off with if you lead is if he put you on a busted draw...and he's betting his missed draws often enough.i prob c/r turn though, although i'm not too sold on that...maybe a lead.bleh- Jordan

[NoBBiR 0]

anyways, thanks for all the feedback. I kinda knew my line was a bit skewed, but villain pushed all in when i checked.which was a complete shock.i figured he would go 75 or something. and i'd make a raise.

It must be nice to actually get action. I hate my poker life :-/