17 replies to this topic

[Rocketwadster]

Yesterday afternoon session. Shouldn't have played at all as I was upset with work related stuff, but needed a break (from work) so decided to play some cards.Had some nice cards pre-flop, but need help to determine when exactly I should give up on my high PP or just check it down. See the following (note: no reads on anyone really, very early in this session, don't recognize anyone):PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with [Ad], [Ac]. UTG calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.Flop: (10 SB) [Jc], [Th], [Kd] (5 players)Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button folds.Trouble flop here. No raises to my bet is good.Turn: (7 BB) [Jd] (4 players)Hero bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.Argh. Someone has a jack or a diamond draw. Time to check it down?River: (13 BB) [2d] (3 players)Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.Final Pot: 13 BBPokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with [Ts], [Td]. UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.Not the highest pair, but a raise from the CO is good here isn't it?Flop: (15.40 SB) [Qs], [Js], [7s] (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.All those spades and two overcards = I'm a coward. Even though I have the ten of spades, I want to check it down if I can. Don't want to risk the check-raise either as many hands beat me right now.Turn: (7.70 BB) [8d] (5 players)BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.Well, the turn gave me some more ways to win, plus with all those callers it is a pretty big pot, so I should call this, right?River: (12.70 BB) [6s] (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.I hit the third nut flush. Can't fold here, can I?Final Pot: 14.70 BBPokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP2 with [Ks], [Kc]. 1 fold, CO calls, BB calls $0.15 (All-In), UTG+1 calls.Correct to cap from MP2?Flop: (16 SB) [Jd], [Jc], [Ad] (4 players, 1 all-in)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.Terrible looking flop. I'll take a stab and see what happens. Darn, he raised back. Call and hope to check it down, or do I give up right here?Turn: (10 BB) [Tc] (3 players, 1 all-in)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.Turn gave me some more outs, so for one BB I call?River: (12 BB) [Td] (3 players, 1 all-in)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.Call the river for information only. Can't beat any ace, any jack, or any ten. Can't beat Queen King. Stupid call, but this was like the third hand I played, so I wanted to see what he did have to hopefully get a read for later play. 1% chance that he was bluffing too...lolSo, there ya have it. Some probably very bad play from yours truly that I would like some input on, if you have the time. I promise I won't get too defensive (this time... :wink: )Final Pot: 14 BB

[Vade]

Hand 1: Calling down is fineYour opponent raised on a second jack, makes senseHand 2: You are right, it's way too big to fold to one betHand 3: Again, Check/calling isn't bad, because you have a lot invested into this pot

[Absolute]

You stopped posting results, that is wonderful. Good job.Now try to do your hands one at a time in Strategy (unless it is a race post or something). You will get more and better input this way.

Rocketwadster said:

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with [Ad], [Ac]. UTG calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.Flop: (10 SB) [Jc], [Th], [Kd] (5 players)Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button folds.Trouble flop here. No raises to my bet is good.Turn: (7 BB) [Jd] (4 players)Hero bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.Argh. Someone has a jack or a diamond draw. Time to check it down?River: (13 BB) [2d] (3 players)Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.Final Pot: 13 BB

Well played.

Quote

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is CO with [Ts], [Td]. UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.Not the highest pair, but a raise from the CO is good here isn't it?Flop: (15.40 SB) [Qs], [Js], [7s] (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.All those spades and two overcards = I'm a coward. Even though I have the ten of spades, I want to check it down if I can. Don't want to risk the check-raise either as many hands beat me right now.Turn: (7.70 BB) [8d] (5 players)BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.Well, the turn gave me some more ways to win, plus with all those callers it is a pretty big pot, so I should call this, right?River: (12.70 BB) [6s] (5 players)BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.I hit the third nut flush. Can't fold here, can I?Final Pot: 14.70 BB

I would worry about a check/raise from the BB on the flop, but I would bet with position on this flop. Your turn call is fine outs if you aren't already ahead. The PF aggressor will bluff in this spot often given the checked flop.

Quote

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP2 with [Ks], [Kc]. 1 fold, CO calls, BB calls $0.15 (All-In), UTG+1 calls.Correct to cap from MP2?Flop: (16 SB) [Jd], [Jc], [Ad] (4 players, 1 all-in)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.Terrible looking flop. I'll take a stab and see what happens. Darn, he raised back. Call and hope to check it down, or do I give up right here?Turn: (10 BB) [Tc] (3 players, 1 all-in)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.Turn gave me some more outs, so for one BB I call?River: (12 BB) [Td] (3 players, 1 all-in)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.Call the river for information only. Can't beat any ace, any jack, or any ten. Can't beat Queen King. Stupid call, but this was like the third hand I played, so I wanted to see what he did have to hopefully get a read for later play. 1% chance that he was bluffing too...lolSo, there ya have it. Some probably very bad play from yours truly that I would like some input on, if you have the time. I promise I won't get too defensive (this time... :wink: )Final Pot: 14 BB

I know it's a huge pot but you are drawing to two outs every time here. Cut your losses and fold the flop raise

[justblaze]

1st hand is fine, you cant really fold there because i doubt he is full, so you have at least 5 (probably 6) outs. 2nd hand brutal check on the flop. the whole thing kinda falls apart after that, you could be drawing dead or to 3 outs, but you really have no idea because you checked the flop. 3rd hand fold to the reraise on the flop.

[akishore]

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

[Absolute]

akishore said:

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

that is extremely situational.folding this flop is best.

[justblaze]

akishore said:

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

please give me a hand that would raise the flop, against which which you have more than 2 outs.EDIT: i just realized how condescending that sounds. its not. i dont have SSHE handy at work, so maybe im missing something? can you try to give me the gist of why he should call here, aseem?

[Absolute]

justblaze said:

akishore said:

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

please give me a hand that would raise the flop, against which which you have more than 2 outs.EDIT: i just realized how condescending that sounds. its not. i dont have SSHE handy at work, so maybe im missing something? can you try to give me the gist of why he should call here, aseem?

You know the age-old distinction between "book smart" and "street smart"?as far as this goes, i think folding this flop is one of those times when you need to be 'street smart' and just know you are beat, about every goddamn time.

[justblaze]

Absolute said:

justblaze said:

akishore said:

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

please give me a hand that would raise the flop, against which which you have more than 2 outs.EDIT: i just realized how condescending that sounds. its not. i dont have SSHE handy at work, so maybe im missing something? can you try to give me the gist of why he should call here, aseem?

You know the age-old distinction between "book smart" and "street smart"?as far as this goes, i think folding this flop is one of those times when you need to be 'street smart' and just know you are beat, about every censored time.

that seemed obvious to me, but apparently it isnt so cut-n-dry.

[CavemanDoctor]

justblaze said:

Absolute said:

justblaze said:

akishore said:

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

please give me a hand that would raise the flop, against which which you have more than 2 outs.EDIT: i just realized how condescending that sounds. its not. i dont have SSHE handy at work, so maybe im missing something? can you try to give me the gist of why he should call here, aseem?

You know the age-old distinction between "book smart" and "street smart"?as far as this goes, i think folding this flop is one of those times when you need to be 'street smart' and just know you are beat, about every censored time.

that seemed obvious to me, but apparently it isnt so cut-n-dry.

Definitely do not fold to the flop raise here. Why do you automatically assume you're beat? It's possible they're on a draw here with KQ, for example. He could be raising to get a free card. He could be overplaying his medium PP. Hell, he could be raising cause he's seen that you're passive enough to fold to many raises on the flop (precisely the type of behavior folding on the flop would inspire, and exactly what you want to avoid). Call one more small bet here on the flop.

[justblaze]

CavemanDoctor said:

justblaze said:

Absolute said:

justblaze said:

akishore said:

hand 1 is fine.hand 2, you should have bet the flop in position. it's not so bad if you get check-raised, but you definitely need to bet to both protect your hand if you're ahead and to get information.hand 3, i think you have to fold on the turn. i absolutely disagree with the statement "fold to the raise on the flop". read the SSHE section on loose flop calls.aseem

please give me a hand that would raise the flop, against which which you have more than 2 outs.EDIT: i just realized how condescending that sounds. its not. i dont have SSHE handy at work, so maybe im missing something? can you try to give me the gist of why he should call here, aseem?

You know the age-old distinction between "book smart" and "street smart"?as far as this goes, i think folding this flop is one of those times when you need to be 'street smart' and just know you are beat, about every censored time.

that seemed obvious to me, but apparently it isnt so cut-n-dry.

Definitely do not fold to the flop raise here. Why do you automatically assume you're beat? It's possible they're on a draw here with KQ, for example. He could be raising to get a free card. He could be overplaying his medium PP. Hell, he could be raising cause he's seen that you're passive enough to fold to many raises on the flop (precisely the type of behavior folding on the flop would inspire, and exactly what you want to avoid). Call one more small bet here on the flop.

ugh, i think call is the worst decision. if hes on a draw, or overplaying a medium pair, or straight bluffing, the reraise is correct. the call is just a cop out.

[Rocketwadster]

Lots of answers, some contradictions. All three of these hands I ended up losing (against Ace Jack of hearts; Queen of diamonds ace of spades; 4 of diamonds jack of hearts). Will I lose over the long haul playing it like I did, I think so at these levels :cry:

[Vade]

I think contradictions are okay, different playing styles and all thatKeep in mind that I don't really play limit at the moment, I just love giving advice

[akishore]

i agree that you're very behind any hand that would raise the flop.i only say call because in general, i feel it's very wrong to bet and fold to a raise on any street in a large pot, most importantly the flop.in a small pot (e.g. heads-up), it can be okay on the turn for example, because to see a showdown you have to call two big bets probably, and it's futile when you know you're beat with king-high.the biggest reason SSHE advocates loose flop calls (calling after you bet and are raised, even when you're sure you're beat) is that if you fold too much, even the most unobservant opponents pick up on it. in fact, SSHE says that this is the one biggest thing you have to remember. you can get away with playing rock-tight in low limit games, as well as raising 100% of the time on the button, and other similar things, because most opponents are unobservant. however, the one thing a large number of low limit players are actually observant about is this, folding to a raise after you bet.folding too much in this situation will cause even weak opponents to throw in one more bet as a raise when they're on a draw or when they have a weak hand.the other reason is minor--you might improve on the turn, but obviously it doesn't really apply here since you can't really improve much (the OP improved to a gutshot, but there's almost no guarantee that the gutshot is good since hitting it will make a final board of AJJTQ with blatant boat opportunities).i think that a call with the intent of check-folding the turn is correct.THAT SAID, absolute does have a point that this is quite situational. since you will be folding the turn around 95% of the time, this might be a rare, once-in-a-blue-moon scenario where it's okay to fold on the flop.in the big picture, though, it doesn't matter. it's only 0.5xBB, and as long as you don't fold on the flop to a raise often at all, this would be okay both calling and folding.aseem

[wrto4556]

This pot (Hand 3) is huge. If you fold on the flop you are missing out on a ton of money. You have enough odds to draw to a full house and backdoor straight. Call the flop raise, on the turn you are getting 11-1 with a gut shot draw and a full house draw, call the turn, fold the river.

[justblaze]

interesting. i would take a different line for sure. if i was going to call i would raise instead. but i just dont think you need to get too deep here. too many ways to be beat, its possible you are drawing dead.

[cdddc75]

Rocketwadster said:

Lots of answers, some contradictions. All three of these hands I ended up losing (against Ace Jack of hearts; Queen of diamonds ace of spades; 4 of diamonds jack of hearts). Will I lose over the long haul playing it like I did, I think so at these levels :cry:

You won't lose nearly as much as J4 guy on the third hand will. What a fish.

[wrto4556]

justblaze said:

... its possible you are drawing dead.

IMO, that doesn't matter. In big pots you draw even if you are likely to be drawing dead.