Big Hands In Big Pots? (sh) (5/10)

[CobaltBlue 662]

Bodog 5/10 NLHE (4-handed)CO $2300Cobalt $1000SB $1350BB $600Cobalt is Button w/ J T . Being short-handed, I've been playing relatively LAG. I have notes that SB is LAG, but we haven't had much in the way of confrontations yet. BB is the tightest of us.Pre-flop:1 fold, Cobalt raises to $30, SB calls, BB callsFlop ($90): Q T 3 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Cobalt bets $50, SB calls, BB foldsTurn ($190): 3 (2 players)SB bets $100, Cobalt raises to $300, SB callsRiver ($790): 6 (2 players)SB goes all-in, Cobalt calls $620 all-inFinal Pot: $2030

[Snamuh 0]

What do you put villain on here?

[Roberts2003 0]

if you think he plays J9 and JK this way, then easy call. its all reads. this is a fold in a vacuum as jordan would say, but if you have a good feel on the guy, call call call. also, if you think he doesnt play a Queen or A10 like this, i agree.

[Scott3705 0]

I'm not exactly sure about the turn raise. At first glance, I liked it because his play seemed like a draw. Then, thinking about it being 4 handed and both of you playing fairly LAG, I would have thought you might have been played back against if villian was holding kj, j9 on the flop. I'm still either way about it and don't think it's bad because we are usually given a free river the way we have played it and we probably put about the same amount in the pot while being able to charge the draw. Since the draw didn't get there and we still didn't get a free card, I would usually fold this river. His line is very out of the ordinary and sort of has the appearance of desperation in trying to take this pot down which is why I think you called. I don't know though, it kinda seems like he's stringing you along and continuing to peak your interest and curiousity in the hand here with a really odd line. Two straight donk bets is just weird.

[Naismith 0]

You called because of the misdeal, I'm sure, figuring if you won the hand, you'd keep quiet and take the money, but if you lost the hand, you'd point out that there were two 10c in the deck.This guy took an unusual line, but I've certainly seen it before with draws. He did a delayed semi-bluff and then called a raise looking to hit. He bricked and pushed, hoping you'd fold. If the board is correct (as in, the turn put the club draw on board), I would expect to see KcJc here a lot.This is a really read-based hand, but I would expect it to go all in on the turn if he really had a hand.

[Scott3705 0]

but I would expect it to go all in on the turn if he really had a hand.

Good point, I really didn't think of that.

[CobaltBlue 662]

You called because of the misdeal, I'm sure, figuring if you won the hand, you'd keep quiet and take the money, but if you lost the hand, you'd point out that there were two 10c in the deck.

*sigh* I always do that when I try to remember the hand from memory. Fixed now. The club draw did come on the turn.

[krup24 0]

This is a really read-based hand, but I would expect it to go all in on the turn if he really had a hand.

Not if its a monster. I definitely agree this is read based.Only hand I think we beat is KJ and sometimes J9. I think the most intriguing part about this hand is that the villian lead the turn.

[Naismith 0]

Not if its a monster. I definitely agree this is read based.Only hand I think we beat is KJ and sometimes J9. I think the most intriguing part about this hand is that the villian lead the turn.

It certainly could be a monster, although the only monster I think it could be would be some weird suited hand with a 3. I think it's a seriously strange line to take with a monster hand, though, and is more consistent in my experience with a delayed semi-bluff + desperation push.

[mtdesmoines 2]

Bodog 5/10 NLHE (4-handed)CO $2300Cobalt $1000SB $1350BB $600Cobalt is Button w/ J T . Being short-handed, I've been playing relatively LAG. I have notes that SB is LAG, but we haven't had much in the way of confrontations yet. BB is the tightest of us.Pre-flop:1 fold, Cobalt raises to $30, SB calls, BB callsFlop ($90): Q T 3 (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Cobalt bets $50, SB calls, BB foldsTurn ($190): 3 (2 players)SB bets $100, Cobalt raises to $300, SB callsRiver ($790): 6 (2 players)SB goes all-in, Cobalt calls $620 all-inFinal Pot: $2030

I'm not saying I would have done what Cobalt did, but I would think if he was doing this, he would have put the villain on a K x of clubs.

[Footballguru 0]

though, and is more consistent in my experience with a delayed semi-bluff + desperation push.

btw, i love the turn raise to define your hand. and villian played any 2 extremely unusual.

[tskillz187 0]

Pretty much completely agree with Naismith on every point thus far. First hand that came to mind was KJcc.

[dgostate8 0]

nothin new, but, just like everyone else, i saw KJ/J9 with clubs

[PoppinFresh 0]

seems a little silly to put him on a draw here as his most likely hand, if he's going to shove a complete blank on the river why wouldn't he just shove the turn.I also think your turn raise is pretty bad, what was your thinking?

[Zach6668 513]

seems a little silly to put him on a draw here as his most likely hand, if he's going to shove a complete blank on the river why wouldn't he just shove the turn.I also think your turn raise is pretty bad, what was your thinking?

Who the hell are you?

[pokerplayer24 0]

Call turn and evaluate river. Id imagine you really have no idea what he has so no need to inflate the pot.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Id imagine you really have no idea what he has so no need to inflate the pot.

I'm pretty sure he's got a draw. I'm raising for several reasons. I'm protecting my hand, I'm getting value, and typically I get the benefit of checking behind on an unimproved river. Additionally, if he plays back at my turn raise, I can pretty confidently get away from my hand.He shouldn't have a 3...yeah, he's loose and might call with the A3 pre-flop, but it'd be odd for him to peel this flop or bet out on such a monster turn. He could have TT/AQ, but I'd very much expect him to have re-raised those pre-flop or check/raised the flop. His line screams something like KJ/J9/AcJc to me. Exploring some of the subtlety of the hand, the reason he might not have played back immediately on the flop was BB's presence. As I described, BB usually wouldn't have called pre-flop without something decent, so SB probably just called the flop waiting to see what he did. Once BB folds, SB feels like he can probably take the pot away with a semi-bluff on the turn. It doesn't work...but he decides he's getting a good price and might be able to take it away on the river even if he misses...particularly if I'm on some sort of non-monster or semi-bluff myself.Obviously, I hate calling large sums on the river with MPGK when there's been pretty decent action to that point. However, I feel like villain had telegraphed his hand by then. As I pondered the river for a while, his line just doesn't add up for anything that beats me. Yeah, I'd feel a little silly if he played KQ/QJ/AT in this crazy manner, but I trusted my read of the situation.Villain flipped KJo and I took the pot.The hand highlights the importance of telling a coherent story when you're bluffing against competent opponents.

[Scott3705 0]

Villain flipped KJo and I took the pot.The hand highlights the importance of telling a coherent story when you're bluffing against competent opponents.

Note to self: donk-bet two street in a row for seemingly no reason and get called by 2nd pair.

[Naismith 0]

Call turn and evaluate river. Id imagine you really have no idea what he has so no need to inflate the pot.

This seems like an odd statement with the way Cobalt played the hand. He played it like someone who was pretty certain where his opponent was the entire way.

[Snamuh 0]

Great call then! I'm definitely not a good enough player to make it.

[pokerplayer24 0]

This seems like an odd statement with the way Cobalt played the hand. He played it like someone who was pretty certain where his opponent was the entire way.

The problem is that a competent opponent doesnt bet/call a draw on the turn, they either bet/fold it or bet/3-bet all in.I played an extremely similar hand yesterday. Generally call and call river blank is the better play since we'd rather let an opponent fire again on the river and not risk getting pushed off the best hand.POKERSTARS GAME #10236951380: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/06/02 - 17:50:12 (ET)Table 'Arachne II' 6-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: FastEddie267 ($806.75 in chips) Seat 2: kingsofcards ($564.50 in chips) Seat 4: obtrice11 ($736.65 in chips) Seat 5: olivier34 ($408.70 in chips) Seat 6: dans57 ($162.50 in chips) olivier34: posts small blind $2dans57: posts big blind $4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to kingsofcards [8s 8h]FastEddie267: folds kingsofcards: raises $12 to $16obtrice11: folds olivier34: calls $14dans57: calls $12*** FLOP *** [9c Qs 4c]ively leaves the tableolivier34: checks dans57: checks kingsofcards: bets $24olivier34: calls $24dans57: folds *** TURN *** [9c Qs 4c] [9d]olivier34: bets $56kingsofcards: calls $56*** RIVER *** [9c Qs 4c 9d] [7s]olivier34: bets $192FGators26 joins the table at seat #3 kingsofcards: calls $192*** SHOW DOWN ***olivier34: shows [Jd Td] (a pair of Nines)kingsofcards: shows [8s 8h] (two pair, Nines and Eights)kingsofcards collected $590 from pot

[Acid_Knight 2]

I guess nice play.You're getting shown AA, KK, QQ, or TT or a busted draw here when you call.If you're sure that he's on a draw, like SURE sure, then raising is ok. With position and a weak hand, I often like to keep the pot as small as possible. I tip my cap on the hand because you correctly thought through every aspect and made a good play. I think a good tricky villain shows up with the full boat or AA or KK here fairly often though.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I guess nice play.You're getting shown AA, KK, QQ, or TT or a busted draw here when you call.If you're sure that he's on a draw, like SURE sure, then raising is ok. With position and a weak hand, I often like to keep the pot as small as possible. I tip my cap on the hand because you correctly thought through every aspect and made a good play. I think a good tricky villain shows up with the full boat or AA or KK here fairly often though.

This line makes VERY little sense for any of these hands. When people take lines this absolutely goofy and absurd, it's usually somebody getting fancy and desperate with air or something busted. I've played quite a few hands like this, and seen my awesome NL friend play hands like this ROUTINELY. The turn is super-suspicious, and rarely a big hand. It's a small bet from a hand that will call a bet, but wants to have some fold equity while keeping the pot smaller. When he just calls, then bombs the river first to act, he's full of crap allll the time.Wang

[Acid_Knight 2]

This line makes VERY little sense for any of these hands. When people take lines this absolutely goofy and absurd, it's usually somebody getting fancy and desperate with air or something busted. I've played quite a few hands like this, and seen my awesome NL friend play hands like this ROUTINELY. The turn is super-suspicious, and rarely a big hand. It's a small bet from a hand that will call a bet, but wants to have some fold equity while keeping the pot smaller. When he just calls, then bombs the river first to act, he's full of crap allll the time.Wang

FWIW I'm gonna bomb you with any of the hands I described above because it DOES look so suspicious if I play it like that. It's the most efficient way for me to get action.

[CobaltBlue 662]

The problem is that a competent opponent doesnt bet/call a draw on the turn, they either bet/fold it or bet/3-bet all in.I played an extremely similar hand yesterday. Generally call and call river blank is the better play since we'd rather let an opponent fire again on the river and not risk getting pushed off the best hand.

Most of my opponents aren't competent. And if he bet/folds...fine - I don't have a monster, so even though I've got value, it's somewhat in jeopardy. I generally assumed if he 3-bet all-in that I could fold...which again wouldn't be a big deal since I wouldn't have a particularly big "draw" or high value hand.I do agree that there are a remarkable amount of similarities between those hands. That said, I think you're potentially playing a slightly more defensive line for some important reasons. The 9 pairing on the turn is actually scarier than a 3 pairing. It may be unlikely that he holds it, but it's certainly more likely than a low bottom pair card. Also, the big draws were present on the flop. Villain wouldn't have "picked up" something to donkbet on the turn...whereas I felt that was pretty likely in my scenario. Finally, you haven't provided much in the way of reads. I agree that this "generally" may be the preferred line, but I don't like the same passivity in the scenario that I provided. I think your situation is a little more in doubt than mine. I felt strongly that I was ahead and didn't want villain to "set the price" for his draw...even if it meant losing out to a river bluff, I think I recovered that with the turn raise and forced him to pay more to continue.If I were playing against myself...and my clone took this same line that villain did...I likely fold the turn and don't call the river, because I know that my clone would be repping a draw while holding a big hand.