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Isolation Play With Extremely Marginal Holdings

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#1 James D

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 01:01 AM

So, I'm starting to play more tournaments again, and want to post this hand from Sunday. This is very much a tournament strategy discussion on the benefits (and pushing the limits of) isolation play...but Zach, I kinda have to post results here. Well, the actual result doesn't matter much, but the cards do.It's something I see more and more of from certain better online players, and feel that maybe it's a part of my game that I need to think about.Ok, I'm very low after 2 horrible beats in 3 hands, so I open shove with 69h. I kinda WANT to be called here by 2 broadway cards, or A rag etc, partly because I'm semi-tilting, lol... but also because it plays ok against lots of hands that will call me that I won't be far behind.So.. once the CO re-raises all in, I'm auto thinking at least AQ KQs, 88>. But, as you can see, he had 10d 7d.He's a very good player, but do you think that this is pushing the boundaries of +ev play? Is is partly metagame? i.e - he knows others will get to see what kind of crap he's re-raising all in with, hoping to profit from loose calls later. Or is it just pure greed, and he sees my raise along with the blinds and antes, and thinks he'll take a shot at it all for himself?What range of hands would any other good tourney players out there be making this move with?-- Wasn't sure whether to say, but to avoid thinking that the villain here is a total donk, it was TheWacoKidd. So, there's obviously good logic behind it.. I was just surprised, yet strangely impressed, with what he was doing this with.Thoughts? How far can you take this theory? Does his fold equity against the blinds, added to the amount he stands to win against what he can lose, mean it's profitable to do this with ATC?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Button (t9842)SB (t12809)BB (t17271)UTG (t7324)UTG+1 (t7265)MP1 (t39512)Hero (t2105)MP3 (t8890)CO (t9481)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6 :D , 9 :) . 3 folds, Hero raises to t2055, 1 fold, CO raises to t9431, 3 folds.Flop: (t11836) 5 :) , 9 :D , 8 :club: (2 players)Turn: (t11836) T :D (2 players)River: (t11836) 5 :D (2 players)Final Pot: t11836Results in white below: Hero: shows [6h 9h] (two pair, Nines and Fives)CO: shows [Td 7d] (two pair, Tens and Fives)CO: collected 5460 from pot Note: Zach, if you do need to edit/move this, then obv do so, but I just wanted to promote a discussion on this type of tournament play.

#2 Zach6668


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Posted 29 May 2007 - 01:17 AM

Nope, I understand, looks like a good thread.Theory posts are treated a lot differently than simple hand posts.:club:
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Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#3 antistuff


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Posted 29 May 2007 - 02:59 AM

what are the blinds and the antes? thats important here.
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#4 James D

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Posted 29 May 2007 - 03:09 AM

Blinds are 300/600. It does say above the hand, in the converter bit. Antes were 25.

#5 YBravo


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Posted 29 May 2007 - 06:07 AM

I'm not real sure what the thinking here is. Perhaps he watched you play and realized that if you got that short, you would be pushing with ATC and he reasoned that he would very likely not be dominated and could even be ahead. Plus the blinds and antes are greater than 10% of his stack. Also, I think there are a number of really terrible hands he will not do this with.Kind of a nutty play. Would love to hear the thought process from TheWacoKidd. PM him maybe?

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#6 Kestral123


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Posted 29 May 2007 - 11:41 AM

CO's play is bad. Real bad. For starters, he can't afford to risk 20% of his stack here with T7s, which he's doing, and most of the time he's behind to any hand you shove, even as desperate as you are. Second, he still has three players behind him who could wake up with a hand. That should have been an easy fold for him.The only part I agree with here is that if you are going to play it, you need to get all your chips in to discourage anyone from coming in behind you. But, no way am I isolating or even calling 20% of my stack here with this hand. It's just bad. (Have I said that enough yet?)
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#7 James D

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 08:45 PM

Bump.GrinderMJ, saw you in this section... any thoughts on this play? lol, you don't have to comment, but you're hot right now, huh!

#8 rog


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Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:42 AM

I don't make this play myself. I don't hate him taking a shot at a tilting short stack with what is likely to be two live cards. That said, I don't think isolating with 3 players left to act (all of whom have him covered) is smart play.

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#9 timwakefield


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Posted 01 June 2007 - 04:01 PM

I can't say his thought process, if he was just messing around, or if this was a major tournament and he was using a well-considered play. I don't particularly hate it, but isolation plays are definitely one of my weaknesses (I need to study them more). Basically he has you on any 2, since you have an M of 1. The chances of you having him dominated are slim, so he's likely around a 60-40 dog, although in this case he's actually a 60-40 favorite. He's looking to win about 4k, and is only risking 2k, so he's certainly getting his money's worth. IMO the only problem with the play is if the button bb or sb has seen him do this before, and will call him with a wide range. Obviously if any of them happen to wake up with a monster he's also screwed, but that's pretty unlikely. Good advertising for him too, a lot of people will have no understanding of the play and think he's just a donkey.
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