a guy who never raises just raised (nl)

[bdc30 0]

$200Nl on pokerroom.Villain has a 0.35% preflop raise % after 150+ hands.We both had around $200 in chips.PreflopHero is SB with J 10 . 6 folds, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, Hero completes $1, Villain (BB) raises to $9, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls.Flop ($22) A K Q Hero checks, Villain bets $5, Hero.....Now, here were my thoughts on the flop...This guy NEVER raises, so he apparently has some type of a hand here. The flop SHOULD have given him at least 2 pair,if not a set. Is it correct to check/raise here, and if so, how much?To my way of thinking, there's no reason to flatcall and give him a chance to catch up on me cheaply.Also, any thoughts on the preflop play? Should I be raisinghere? OK to call his raise from the SB?

[checkymcfold 0]

calling the raise from such a passive preflop player is marginal at best. you know you're way behind, and if the guy has shown any ability to get away from big hands to scary boards, then you're probably not getting paid off huge if you hit.rage on that flop. don't let him boat up. he either thinks he's weak leading into a worse hand or he has JJ or so and isn't going to pay you off anyway.

[Whiskey16 1]

His flop bet is incredibly weak. Less than 1/4 of the pot. So he's either thinking he can buy it just by betting, or he's trying to induce you into the pot. I'd make a big raise here, at least the size of the pot. Make him pay if he's going to catch a boat, assuming your analysis is correct, which I agreed with.

[bdc30 0]

Is the check ok on the flop, or should I just bet out?

[checkymcfold 0]

Is the check ok on the flop, or should I just bet out?

checking flop is standard.for the record, i'm putting the villain on JJ. tell me if i'm right, and if so, give me a cookie.

[bdc30 0]

for the record, i'm putting the villain on JJ. tell me if i'm right, and if so, give me a cookie.

Well, no cookie for you. I'm thinking if he has JJ and wemake a raise here, there's about 0% chance of getting toactually see what he had.

[checkymcfold 0]

for the record, i'm putting the villain on JJ. tell me if i'm right, and if so, give me a cookie.

Well, no cookie for you. I'm thinking if he has JJ and wemake a raise here, there's about 0% chance of getting toactually see what he had.

right, shit. coffee hasn't kicked in yet. was he weak leading, then?

[bdc30 0]

With that low of a pre-flop raise % do you think he would raise JJ out of the big blind with 4 peoplein already?

[RhinestoneCowboy 2]

Im curious what you think he would put you on if you called his $5 bet. There wouldn't be much I would call with, AJ or A10 with a runner runner flush possibility?Raise it up and make him pay to catch his boat. If I had 2 pr or a set there I know Im not getting away from it...Tough to guess his hand.. AA, KK, QQ, and AK all possibilities. If it wasnt any of those I owe you a cookie..

[bdc30 0]

Tough to guess his hand.. AA, KK, QQ, and AK all possibilities.

That's basically the same range I put him on.What else does a guy who raises less than 1/2 % of the time raise with preflop if not these hands??

[checkymcfold 0]

With that low of a pre-flop raise % do you think he would raise JJ out of the big blind with 4 peoplein already?

in a lot of games, yes. i see a lot of players at LLNLHE that will only raise JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, but raise them huge. and also, keep in mind that 150 hands ain't a whole lot. you have less info on this guy than you think. but still, the point remains: raise this flop big.and i want a cookie anyway.

[guinevar 0]

Whatever you do, do not push. Kurt can probably tell you more about that, though his situation was a little different.Here is what I do.Fold preflop.I probably lay a pot sized bet down. If he pushes, you call of course. If the board pairs on 4th street, you may have to lay it down based on his action.You don't want all the money in until the river based on the good chance our opponent may have hit top, middle, or bottom set. A paired board might dictate a fold, but there is no reason to get all the money in until the river. However, don't let him draw cheap.

[HurricaneKyle 0]

I'm not a fan of the preflop call with JT. If the flop is J62, you could end up losing a good deal of money if you aren't disciplined. I like JT but its not a good hand heads up with a guy who plays tight. Wait until you have four people calling a raise and then get in on the action.Even though I think calling with JT is too loose in this spot, the problem changes on the flop when you hit the nuts. If he has JJ, you probably aren't going to make any money if he is as passive as you say. If he has QQ,KK, or AA(all of which are highly likely) you need to throw in a raise greater than his bet on the flop. If he has AA,QQ,AK or KK he will call this for sure(perhaps even move in, if he has one of those hands) and you are in the process of building a big pot which is exactly what you want.Checking the flop is sometimes the best play, but not always. If the player bets his hands very aggressively and you are certain he has one of those hands, then why not bet about 1/3 of the pot and have him raise(which he will do) and then you can get all your money in with the nuts. Slowplaying is fun, but often times it does not work out as well as planned. Oftentimes a scare card comes on the turn and it kills the action when you could have made much more money if you played the hand to its true strength on the flop.

[Whiskey16 1]

Is the check ok on the flop, or should I just bet out?

Checking here is the best play possible, as you currently have the best hand possible, and assuming his preflop raise, and the range of hands everyone agrees he has based on his not raising previously, let him put more money in the pot. Once he bets, raise him big to make him pay if he wants to hit a boat, as I still think AA, KK, QQ or AK are the most like hands he has.

[bdc30 0]

I'm not a fan of the preflop call with JT. If the flop is J62, you could end up losing a good deal of money if you aren't disciplined.

I know what you're saying. It's a highly player-dependanttype of call here. I play a lot of $200 NL, and would have no problem at all getting away from this hand, even with top pair. I see how rarely this guy gets aggressive, and have alreadysaid I put him on either AA, KK, QQ, AK, and maybe AQ or JJ.When I called here, I knew that without some type of flopthat greatly helped my hand, I wasn't losing any more thanthe additional $7 that I put in.

[shpaget 0]

First, I like your preflop call, but it's close.Yes, you know you're behind, but there's already $15 in there...$7 to call...why not? I can see a fold here too though.He may not raise, but does he call a lot? If so, you'll get money out of him if you hit your hand? If he is weak/scared - probably more likely - there are other possibilities. You may not hit your hand but you can scare him off Aces with several types of boards...paired boards, 4-straights, etc.On the flop I agree with the check...he's got top two pair or, more likely, a set...Aces or Kings - doesn't matter....he's gonna bet. However, also consider that he will probably raise a small bet as well. Unless he is so passive that when he sees you lead into the preflop raiser, he gets scared....but even then he'll probably call.On his weak bet there are two trains of thought.You can big raise and take the pot right now (or see if he pays to hit his boat)...you likely take the $27 if you bet the pot.Or, you smooth call him and play the odds...he's got 7 outs...he's 6 to 1 to hit his boat on the turn...if a blank comes you will probably induce another bet out of him...and that bet may be larger this time....now you check raise huge, because he'll now have 10 outs.It comes down to this: are you happy to take the $27 pot now, or are you willing to risk that $27 to extract a little more...even $10-$15 more, knowing that you get burned 1 in 7 times you try.Raising big, like the pot, wins you more pots...smooth calling wins you more money. If y0u think he'll call a small raise, then raising minimum raise or 2x minimum also wins more money long-term (the consideration is, after a check raise on the flop, he may not bet to your check on the turn, so you lead it).

[bdc30 0]

A paired board might dictate a fold, but there is no reason to get all the money in until the river.

I'm curious as to why you say this.Isn't it a good idea to get the as much money in to the pot as you can while you are ahead?

[HurricaneKyle 0]

If he has one of those hands, the money will probably flow into the pot naturally and its one of those poker hands where both players have great hands and one of them will lose all their money anyway.Here is why I like betting the flop over checking in this case:1. If he has AA,QQ,KK, he might check the flop as well, and I missed one betting round where I could have built up the pot.2. This is true in ANY case you check a good hand on the flop. What you are doing is making it more difficult to play the turn and the river if a bad card comes. What happens if the board pairs on 4th street and you both checked the flop. Honestly, you will have no idea where you are at and thus are more likely to make a bad decision.3. This player is very passive. Let's say he has AA,KK,AK, or QQ and the flop is AKQ. If a J or 10 comes on 4th street, he might be able to get away from the hand by putting you on some other hand that made a straight. Since he is passive, he will be reluctant to put the money you deserve into the pot since you only need one card to beat him. This is exactly what you DON'T want to happen.4. Again if you bet the flop, he has to raise with those hands if he is any kind of player. The pot will be massive, and you should win a lot of money.This is great for your table image, after this everyone will be scared to play pots with you, since they know you are capable of playing the nuts very fast. They'll also think you make marginal calls and they won't know whether you hit the flop or not.Your bet should be relatively small. If you lead out with a bet 1/4-1/3 of the pot, then he will raise. Then you can make double his raise and milk him the rest of the way.

[Whiskey16 1]

A paired board might dictate a fold, but there is no reason to get all the money in until the river.

I'm curious as to why you say this.Isn't it a good idea to get the as much money in to the pot as you can while you are ahead?

Guin said if he goes all in over you, you call.By raising the pot, which Guin suggests, you're still getting him to call with the odds not in his favor, but you're not committing all of your chips with two cards to come. If he's got a set, which seems likely, he's not leaving if a brick comes on the turn, but if the board pairs, we know we're probably in troble, and can still get away with most of our stack if he raises big. So yes, you want to get as much money in the pot as possible while you're ahead, but pushing all in here over his $5 bet is overkill, and would likely scare him aware for sure. A pot sized bet should scare him enough, but with a set, will still like induce at least a call, if not a reraise, which works too, since the broadway is the best hand at that time.

[bdc30 0]

I agree for sure, the all-in push here is overkill.For results (or lack thereof)...I raise $30 (roughly pot size)and he folded.Must have been Jacks, so maybe mcfoldy gets his cookie after all, but there's no way to know for sure.No way he laid down a set here, or top 2 pair, IMO

[shpaget 0]

Checking the flop is sometimes the best play, but not always. If the player bets his hands very aggressively and you are certain he has one of those hands, then why not bet about 1/3 of the pot and have him raise(which he will do) and then you can get all your money in with the nuts.

Let's say they both have $200....pot is $22...both have $191 left.OP bets $7...villain raises to $15...OP goes all in...villain has $175 to call to win $230.1:3 to 1. He's 2:1 (just under) to hit his boat by the river.So, if villain raises to $30 (instead of $15), OP goes all in, villain has $160 to win $245....if villain raised to $60, he has $130 to win $275. Now he's got pot odds to justify calling an all-in. Hell, he might make the call without pot odds, thinking he is winning, not needing outs.On the flop he has 7 outs...on the turn he has 10 - any hit for him kills you...you can not improve this hand...ever.If you see a turn you can at least evaluate if you're dead and get out...otherwise, now go all-in - he'll be 4:1 to hit his hand...if he's gonna call your all-in on the flop, he'll probably do it on the turn, but now you win 4 in 5 times instead of 2 in 3.

[akishore 0]

haven't read replies.this hand is uber-easy to play, i can't believe the thread is so long.preflop: fantastic. you know what he has, AA/KK and *rarely* QQ/AK.check/call flop.check/call non-board-pair turn, check/fold board-pair turn.push non-board-pair river, check/fold board-pair river.uber, uber easy, it's not close.aseem

[bdc30 0]

check/call flop.aseem

No raise here?Seems unlike you Aseem.

[guinevar 0]

this hand is uber-easy to play, i can't believe the thread is so long.uber, uber easy, it's not close.

The thread had already arrived in a large way at the conclusions you suggest. There is something to be said for learning things through discussion. Such discussion helps people own what they learn and not just understand what they read.Please read replies next time. I understand your desire to give objective advice that has not been skewed by what you have read. In that case, please open up a notepad file, type in your response, read the responses to the thread, consider what has been said, consider what your original advice was, and then please post something that adds to the discussion.With the greatest amount of respect and consideration for your contributions here, I have noticed that recently some of your (though you are not entirely alone in this) responses have been overly geared towards looking down on people who are participating in civil discourse about a hand. Perhaps encouraging this discussion is more beneficial than calling something "uber, uber easy" and berating people for spending so much time on a thread, when you have admitted you have no idea what they have been talking about. You have chosen not to.Lotsa smiles,Guinevar

[Actuary 3]

haven't read replies.this hand is uber-easy to play, i can't believe the thread is so long.preflop: fantastic. you know what he has, AA/KK and *rarely* QQ/AK.check/call flop.check/call non-board-pair turn, check/fold board-pair turn.push non-board-pair river, check/fold board-pair river.uber, uber easy, it's not close.aseem

well.Pot size had something to do with it.Don't call $10 on the turn and then fold for $10 more on the river if a Q falls, right?but yeah, I agree with the overall approach.Why not c/r a no-Pair turn ?He's drawing to 10 outs? at best.Do we want to induce more action on a safer river, is that why?Aseem ,you figure we don't have fold equity and thus need to wait to get our chips all in?