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#561 slt1der

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 12:10 AM

View PostCaneBrain, on Wednesday, December 10th, 2008, 9:30 AM, said:

let me just say that the argument I was interested in has gotten sidetracked. that argument is if you are starting a team from scratch right now you should be taking lebron and that Lebron is clearly either the best or the 2nd best player in the league. Wade is third.
Right now the best player in the league title should be shared. Kobe and LeBron. #1 and #1a. By all star break, I expect Lebron to take over the title. How can we have this discussion without CP3 in the mix? Wade and CP3 are not that far behind those two.

#562 keith crime

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:24 AM

When Mo Williams arrived in Cleveland ahead of the Cavs training camp in September, he had a meeting with several members of the coaching staff to outline some of the plans they had in store for him with his new teammates. The coaches had a lot of things to say; Williams only had one: "Whatever you need me to do, on the ball, off the ball, I'm cool with it all." The early success the Cavs have enjoyed this season -- a 19-3 start and a 10-game winning streak after their 101-93 road victory over the 76ers on Wednesday -- began last spring when the restructured team began to gel in the playoffs. It continued over the summer as LeBron James gained extreme confidence as one of the leaders of Team USA. And when Williams came aboard, bringing both the talent the Cavs were sorely lacking -- a high-level offensive point guard -- and a team-first attitude from his first day on the job, many of the Cavs' well-chronicled deficiencies started melting away. Williams and James are now running the show of what so far has been the best offense in the NBA. That's a fairly shocking statement considering the way the team had performed in the James era. Averaging 104 points and just 13 turnovers per game and shooting 48 percent, the Cavs thus far have the most efficient offense in the league. Seven players average seven points or more, and nine players are shooting 46 percent or better. Until Wednesday, each of the Cavs' past 12 wins had been by at least 11 points. "When you look at the depth we have, we know we can score with anyone in the league," James said. "It doesn't just have to be me." Could one player, Williams, have made that much of a difference? Well, yes and no. For much of last season the Cavs had the lowest-scoring starting backcourt in the NBA. Larry Hughes started most of the games at point guard, but he was playing out of position. Several different players started at shooting guard, including Daniel Gibson, Devin Brown, Shannon Brown and Wally Szczerbiak, and none seemed to perfectly fit. Things improved slightly when Delonte West was brought aboard, because it meant that Gibson could go back to the bench, the role in which he has performed best during his career. Last year the Cavs were actually outscored by their opponents, and things improved only slightly in the postseason, when Cleveland still averaged less than 90 points and shot 42 percent. When the Cavs did win, most of the time it was because James -- who without a doubt had his best season as a pro in winning the scoring title and leading the league in fourth-quarter scoring -- carried them home. Bringing in Williams, though, changed more than just one position. Knowing they had a lead guard who could run the offense on his own, the Cavs were able to move West over to shooting guard. That is his best position, in which he excelled in college at St. Joseph's next to Jameer Nelson. That move not only allowed Gibson to come off the bench, but also Szczerbiak, who played well for the Sonics as a reserve last season before going stone-cold as a starter with the Cavs. So by adding Williams to the mix, the Cavs were able to position their top four guards to be successful, and successful they have been. West's shooting has been strong, and he's averaging just under 10 points, with a 3-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio. Because he is also the Cavs' best on-ball perimeter defender, he's been able to match up with tougher point guards on defense without having to handle too much on offense. Because James doesn't have to handle the ball as much either, the Cavs have been able to play smaller and allow him to play some at power forward. Szczerbiak also gets chances there; his lack of quickness doesn't show up as much when he plays inside. But with Williams and James on the floor creating, Szczerbiak still gets open looks on the outside. And the benefit is clear: After shooting 36 percent with the Cavs last season, Szczerbiak is now at 48 percent. Williams' scoring and assist numbers down slightly from last season. He's at a bit less than 16 points and five assists per game, but he's just as involved. Coach Mike Brown has set up the rotation to always allow Williams to be on the court when James is resting, so Williams gets to share time as the main offensive option with Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Williams can take over when he needs to, such as when he scored six points in the last three minutes to clinch the win against the 76ers. Williams has been so effective that James is playing the fewest minutes of his career. Only twice thus far has James played 40 minutes, which was his average last season. To take advantage of Williams' talents, the Cavs also installed some new facets of their "early offense" so they could be more effective in transition. It was easier to do, considering James didn't have to lead every fast break. Because Brown trusts Williams to run the offense, he allows Williams to handle much of the play calling. This is a switch from past seasons, and it enables the Cavs to be more fluid because they don't have to wait for a signal from the bench. "Mo has been off the charts for us," Brown said. "With Mo calling the game it makes us harder to defend, and he's been doing a great job of getting everyone into a rhythm." Factor in their always strong defense, which ranks first in the league in points allowed and second in field goal percentage allowed, and the Cavs suddenly have the look of a serious championship contender. "Am I surprised we're 19-3? No, because I believed in this team when I got here," Williams said. "We have a long way to go, but we are focusing on the right things."

#563 CaneBrain

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:28 AM

View Postslt1der, on Thursday, December 11th, 2008, 1:10 AM, said:

Right now the best player in the league title should be shared. Kobe and LeBron. #1 and #1a. By all star break, I expect Lebron to take over the title. How can we have this discussion without CP3 in the mix? Wade and CP3 are not that far behind those two.
if you start looking at things like PER you start to see the chasm between Kobe, Lebron, Wade and CP3. Chris Paul is definitely 4th but I dont see him bridging the gap. He is a great player....but he cant create his own shot at will like the other 3.I also dont like mentioning this but I think I should....if Wade was not so injury prone (and Lebron the opposite of injury prone) then it might be a legit debate who is the better player. But that factor is the clincher in the argument (sadly).
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#564 tskillz187

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 06:52 PM

I think CP3 makes players on his team so much better than they are, so that negates some of his own faults on offense, like not being able to score at will. He's legit right there and if I were starting a team today, for many years to come, he and LeBron would be very close as 1 and 2 imo. I agree, injuries put Wade back and age puts Kobe back. If it was for a one yr deal to try and win the Finals this yr, I'd take Kobe. He's the best defender and the most clutch. I fucking hate Kobe.
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#565 slt1der

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:06 PM

View Posttskillz187, on Thursday, December 11th, 2008, 6:52 PM, said:

I think CP3 makes players on his team so much better than they are, so that negates some of his own faults on offense, like not being able to score at will. He's legit right there and if I were starting a team today, for many years to come, he and LeBron would be very close as 1 and 2 imo. I agree, injuries put Wade back and age puts Kobe back. If it was for a one yr deal to try and win the Finals this yr, I'd take Kobe. He's one of the best defenders and the most clutch. I ****ing hate Kobe unless he was on my team.
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#566 chgocubs99

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 08:36 AM

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QUOTE (dscoot @ Friday, April 10th, 2009, 3:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
im still not sold that many of these people that get these big online scores are winners when it comes to the live game, which, by the way, is real poker.


#567 fleung22

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 02:53 AM

I'm a big Jadaki fan but I'm totally pro-James. Comparing guys like Kobe and Wade to Lebron is a bit tough because the first two have already won their championships and they've had more years in the league. All we can do is speculate based on development and success so far.Kobe and Wade both benefited HUGE by one man named Shaq who was the most dominating player in the NBA at the time. I think there are untouchables also like the confidence you get with winning the whole thing that have served them well post-Shaq.Lebron got Mo Williams and I don't think there's a debate between the significance of Mo vs. Shaq. What Lebron's already done in previous seasons is nothing short of remarkable and the fact that his defense and FT% have improved so much makes him one sick player. Other than maybe getting his 3pt% to around 35%+ there's not much more you can ask from the guy. If his players in previous seasons didn't suck so much he'd easily have another assist or two every game because they wouldn't fumble the lighting fast passes or actually keep their heads up.It's really simple...ask yourself this. If you trade the MVP from any of the championship-calibre teams right now for Lebron do you feel better or worse for that team's chances? Lebron for Pierce in Boston, Lebron for Kobe in LA...at best you'd make a small change here or there (re: more shooters in LA?) to better suite Lebron's game but I take the King.


#568 fleung22

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 02:57 AM

oh btw...I think Kobe and Lebron for MVP is a debate.no. 2 is farrr behind but there's definitely more names than CP3 and Wade. Dwight is fantastic and if you anything about basketball you'd notice Roy is turning into one sick-ass mofo.


#569 BigDMcGee

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 08:42 AM

View Postchgocubs99, on Monday, December 15th, 2008, 8:36 AM, said:

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yeah, that right there pretty much ends the discussion. If you want to talk about "intangibles that don't show up on paper" how about this one.. the cavs are 22-4. It's not like he's putting up obscene stats on an irrelevant team. Lebron is the landslide MVP.
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#570 Jadaki

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:19 AM

View PostBigDMcGee, on Sunday, December 21st, 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

yeah, that right there pretty much ends the discussion. If you want to talk about "intangibles that don't show up on paper" how about this one.. the cavs are 22-4. It's not like he's putting up obscene stats on an irrelevant team. Lebron is the landslide MVP.
If you want to talk intangibles, give me KG's leadership over anything Lebron has.Celtics are up to what... 18 straight?And Fleung, Wade came into the league the same year as Lebron, and Shaq was no where near as dominant on the Heat team that won the title as he was for his rings in LA. Wade is older because he played college ball where he took a shitty program into national recognition.

#571 BigDMcGee

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:24 AM

View PostJadaki, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 9:19 AM, said:

If you want to talk intangibles, give me KG's leadership over anything Lebron has.Celtics are up to what... 18 straight?
yeah, trade Lebron for KG and see how many wins his leadership gets cleveland.
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#572 Jadaki

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:39 AM

View PostBigDMcGee, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 10:24 AM, said:

yeah, trade Lebron for KG and see how many wins his leadership gets cleveland.
We will never know...How many wins did Pierce and the Celtics have before KG?

#573 keith crime

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:45 AM

View PostJadaki, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

We will never know...How many wins did Pierce and the Celtics have before KG?
how many wins did minn have with KG?Garnett's a fantastic player but he clearly loves doing all the other stuff and having Paul Pierce around to take all the big shots

#574 BigDMcGee

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 09:52 AM

View Postkeith crime, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 9:45 AM, said:

how many wins did minn have with KG?
lol. In fairness, the current Cavs are better than most of those Timberwolves teams. KG in his prime is a different animal all together, and would make a much more compelling case. But with todays KG, if you'd really take him over lebron, you're either 1) Retarded 2) smoking sherm 3) Jadaki.I will say, specifically for the Celtics, that KG is a better fit than Lebron, because he's not a low post player. Though he has a power forward's body, he doesn't have a power forward's game ( yet). Would I rather have Lebron than Pierce on the Celtics? El Oh El.
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#575 SuitedAces21

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:20 AM

View PostJadaki, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 12:19 PM, said:

If you want to talk intangibles, give me KG's leadership over anything Lebron has.
you've gone completely sideways, man.

#576 Jadaki

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 10:38 AM

View PostBigDMcGee, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

lol. In fairness, the current Cavs are better than most of those Timberwolves teams. KG in his prime is a different animal all together, and would make a much more compelling case. But with todays KG, if you'd really take him over lebron, you're either 1) Retarded 2) smoking sherm 3) Jadaki.I will say, specifically for the Celtics, that KG is a better fit than Lebron, because he's not a low post player. Though he has a power forward's body, he doesn't have a power forward's game ( yet). Would I rather have Lebron than Pierce on the Celtics? El Oh El.
Current Cavs are better than all but 1 of the teams MN had while KG was there, last years Cav's without Williams were better than most teams KG was on. Today's KG has lead his team to 18 straight wins, and doesn't need to shoot the ball every time down the court or have it run through him. He can play better than Lebron in a team oriented system and its not even close. Lebron over Pierce... not for the Celtics, for the Cavs yes, for the Celtics no.Though I'm sure if they could make that trade they would, Pierce doesn't have many really good years left.

View PostSuitedAces21, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

you've gone completely sideways, man.
Aren't you still crying over losing last June? All it takes is a reference to a Celtics player to get Lakers fans angry :club:

#577 SuitedAces21

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:12 AM

View PostJadaki, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 1:38 PM, said:

Aren't you still crying over losing last June?
That has nothing to do with this.

#578 BigDMcGee

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:38 AM

View PostJadaki, on Monday, December 22nd, 2008, 10:38 AM, said:

Current Cavs are better than all but 1 of the teams MN had while KG was there, last years Cav's without Williams were better than most teams KG was on. Today's KG has lead his team to 18 straight wins, and doesn't need to shoot the ball every time down the court or have it run through him. He can play better than Lebron in a team oriented system and its not even close. Lebron over Pierce... not for the Celtics, for the Cavs yes, for the Celtics no.
yeah, because Lebron is such a selfish player and everything. LOL
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#579 keith crime

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:45 AM

I just heard Doc Rivers on Jim Rome talking about KG and he compared him to Russell and said without the supporting cast you don't see the greatnessOf course Jadeki refuses to acknowledge that supporting cast matters - they are all NBA players right?I love Mo Williams but he's no Paul PierceKG never did anything without Pierce - even when he had a team that was supposed toTrade KG for Lebron - both teams are actually worse, but the Cavs would be a few games above 500 and the Celtics would be one or two games worseYou can't be the best player in the game if when you're down by one, you have to ask Paul Pierce where on the court he wants you to try and get him the ball

#580 keith crime

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:47 AM

Celtics 2008 MVPS3. Kevin Garnett2. Paul Pierce1. Kevin McHale



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