good laydown, or were the implied odds too big?

[GodOfEntropy 0]

I was playing on a 10-handed $25 NL table at party when the hand below came up. I ended up folding a set of 8's on a flop of 8c-9d-Jd after I opened up with a bet of $3 and got raised to $9 by the player to my left and another player called it. I figured one of them flopped the straight or made a higher set. As you can see from the history, one player made a straight on the turn, but I would have rivered quads. This however is besides the point as I probably had 7 outs to a winning hand if I was behind to a straight, but was essentially drawing dead if one of them had a set, so I guess one could estimate my outs at around 5 as it was probably more likely that one of them held the straight rathen than a set. If you buy this reasoning than I probably made a good laydown as I needed to be getting around 8 to 1 pot odds to make the call. Of course, I gave the 2 players too much credit as one was on a open ended straight draw and the other had top pair with a draw to a gutshot on the flop. I was wondering how some of you would have played this hand as if I had to do it over again I would probably make the laydown, but I would seriously consider calling. Thanks.SteveParty Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converterSB ($24.5)BB ($22.22)UTG ($13.05)UTG+1 ($18.45)UTG+2 ($43.9)MP1 ($8.89)MP2 ($25.3)MP3 ($70.5)Hero ($26)Button ($26.27)Preflop: Hero is CO with [8c], [8h]. SB posts a blind of $0.1. UTG calls $0.25, 5 folds, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50.Flop: ($3.75) [9c], [Jd], [8d] (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $3, SB folds, BB calls $9, UTG folds, Hero folds.Turn: ($24.75) [Qh] (2 players)BB checks, Button checks.River: ($24.75) [8s] (2 players)Button calls $12.47.Final Pot: $37.22Results in white below: BB has As Td (straight, queen high). Button has Jc Qs (two pair, queens and jacks). Outcome: BB wins $37.22.

[Absolute 0]

Don't post results.Why aren't you raising 88 from the CO?This is an easy easy easy raise on any table in any city in any country in any universe.So, raise it up to $.75 preflop.Your bet on the flop is fine. Your fold makes me want to kill small children. Ok, so I really don't care that much, but its bad.Don't base your thoughts on the hand on what happened.BUT, just because you did show results, I'll let you in on a secret. You had 62% equity on that flop.Anyway, raise pre-flop with this, everytime, if I haven't mentioned that yet.(You don't post results because you want an unbiased response base)A lot of fish will tell you it might be a good fold because dudebro turned the straight.It's not.

[PrtyPSux 0]

first of all, you shouldve raised 1 dlr preflop, always raise good hands in the CO if you can get the button and the two blinds to fold its already worth it.second of all, IMO dont fold a set, its WAY too powerful (if i recall correctly, even Super System says that its almost impossible to let go of a set) if someone does have a str8, you still have 8 outs for the turn and 11 outs for the river. Not only that, but you have to consider the fact that most of these guys over play bad hands and under play good ones, sooo, the Button does not have a stra8 ,,.he wouldve cold called (unless he was a really good player he might raise to get the flush drws out) the BB might MAYBE have the Q-10 but its quite possible that he has a flush draw, JK, J9 ect..what I would do is push all in, if theres a str8 o well..the pot is 24ishyou have 23 leftyour odds to hit a full by the river are about 3 to 1 ish (math guys, correct me if im wrong on any of this)so if the both call and you are behind, you are getting 3 to 1not only that, but you'll be up against 2 pr and KJ's a decent amount of the time, and if they fold you're getting 18 bux w/ out risking getting outdrawn.hate math, might have gotten it all wrong, but sum1 will correct me if I did, either way, I come over the top All-in.

[PrtyPSux 0]

(You don't post results because you want an unbiased response base)A lot of fish will tell you it might be a good fold because dudebro turned the straight.It's not.

[checkymcfold 0]

if you're looking for the strictly math-guy answer, absolute already gave it. in a three way pot, even if you know you're up against two str8s, pushing is +ev.if you're looking for the more nuanced answer, i sincerely doubt that you're looking at a str8 in very low limit NLHE. the guy with the nuts has already wet himself at the bets in front and pushed. you didn't see this happen (the carpet's still dry and people still have most of their money), so go ahead and shove that stack in.(and prty, it's 35% to boat up on a set after the flop :-) )

[Absolute 0]

if you're looking for the strictly math-guy answer, absolute already gave it. in a three way pot, even if you know you're up against two str8s, pushing is +ev.if you're looking for the more nuanced answer, i sincerely doubt that you're looking at a str8 in very low limit NLHE. the guy with the nuts has already wet himself at the bets in front and pushed. you didn't see this happen (the carpet's still dry and people still have most of their money), so go ahead and shove that stack in.(and party, it's 35% to boat up on a set after the flop :-) )

you are up against the straight a small amount of the time.But we want to get our money in here because your equity is so high that in the long run this is an extremely profitable situation.

[PrtyPSux 0]

(and party, it's 35% to boat up on a set after the flop :-) )

thanks..im gonna make a whole other thread with all my math questions..cuz I SUCK AT IT. i dont wanna hijack this one.

[Blink20 0]

Nothing I can respond to, everyone is right. Except the 3-1 but he knows that's not right and doesn't want to hijack this thread... sooo....Recap:Push PreflopRaise All In on FlopTake The Money:-)

[Smasharoo 0]

Why aren't you raising 88 from the CO?This is an easy easy easy raise on any table in any city in any country in any universe.No, it's realy not.You're not very good at NL, are you?

[PrtyPSux 0]

Why aren't you raising 88 from the CO?This is an easy easy easy raise on any table in any city in any country in any universe.No, it's realy not.You're not very good at NL, are you?

If he's playing your all-in w/ set strategy (which btw would only work in B&M or .02/.04 online) then its not, if hes playing regular poker then it is.

[Blink20 0]

Why aren't you raising 88 from the CO?This is an easy easy easy raise on any table in any city in any country in any universe.No, it's realy not.You're not very good at NL, are you?

Look at the preflop action. There has only been one limper. He has position and a good hand, a raise would be a good play in this spot. This gives him extra ways to win the pot.1) Everyone folds preflop2) They all check and fold to his continuation bet on the flop3) He builds a big pot, spikes his set on the flop and makes even more.I would agree that in a situation at a $25 NL where everyone has limped in, it would be okay to just limp on the CO and try to get your set because raising would not reduce the field nor give you the added fold equity on the flop because someone would call with their J overcard with a 5 kicker if they did hit.However, in this spot, a raise is certainly correct.

[Smasharoo 0]

This is a great situation to raise pre-flop, be reraised and then what?Call and pray to hit your two outs on the flop?Great idea.Get in cheap with speculative hands and make the money postflop. Don't put yourself in situations with little visability postflop where you've been the agressor and feel compeled to bet into a flop where you may be crushed.Screw thinning the field. You're playing a hand that will very rarely win unimproved even heads up. In a *tournament* where the blind to stack size ratio is less miniscule raising pre-flop makes sense. In a cash game with stacks this deep it's chip spewing.It's 88 not TT. There's a big diffrence.

[Blink20 0]

This is a great situation to raise pre-flop, be reraised and then what?Call and pray to hit your two outs on the flop?Great idea.Get in cheap with speculative hands and make the money postflop. Don't put yourself in situations with little visability postflop where you've been the agressor and feel compeled to bet into a flop where you may be crushed.Screw thinning the field. You're playing a hand that will very rarely win unimproved even heads up. In a *tournament* where the blind to stack size ratio is less miniscule raising pre-flop makes sense. In a cash game with stacks this deep it's chip spewing.It's 88 not TT. There's a big diffrence.

This situation is really quite obvious.There has only been one limper, I've outlined why a raise is correct, so I'll just respond to your post...Be reraised then what? Then you play accordingly. If he did limp raise utg, then you can almost put him on a higher pp, at this limit he will pay you off if you do flop your two outer. That's simple math, about 8-1 to flop your set, if he has a deep enough stack after calling the raise to get paid off on those odds, then you will call the raise, if not, you fold. You can fold preflop after raising.As far as getting in cheap preflop. Agreed, in the right situation. As I'm sure you know, poker is a situational game. In this situation, you only have one limper, you are going to win that pot right there, and probably win on the flop if you do get a preflop caller. You are not treating your 8's as a drawing hand in this spot, but as a made hand with more value by raising and leading into the flop.You say, screw thinning the field. Well, look at this hand. The field has been thinned. There are more objectives to raising in NL than just thinning the field. Read my other post, that is obviously not why I am advocating raising in this spot. It's 88 not 10 10, a big difference. No. Not in this spot, they are not.

[PrtyPSux 0]

This is a great situation to raise pre-flop, be reraised and then what?Call and pray to hit your two outs on the flop?Great idea.Get in cheap with speculative hands and make the money postflop. Don't put yourself in situations with little visability postflop where you've been the agressor and feel compeled to bet into a flop where you may be crushed.

you have a point, but wouldn't this reduce the value of your 99-77 hands to "only good when flopped a set" which is basically what 66-22 are worth?? What about raising PF ..THINNING THE FIELD..and then making a move on the flop, a lot of times the flop will be rags, in which case you know you're good. sometimes the flop will have an A and against 1 or 2 opponents, you can bet and scare them off if they called w/ kj and Q10 like they do most of the time. If you're beat you fold, if you're re-raised PF you fold..

[GodOfEntropy 0]

Thank you for all you comments. I am not sold on the idea of raising preflop PP's below 10-10 as I regard them as speculative hands, but I may do some experimenting in this regard.Concerning the play on the flop, I see the merits of pushing here after I got reraised, and simply calling seems too passive, so perhaps a more general question is when do you lay down a set? I agree there are much more intimidating boards for straight and flush possibilities than the board I faced, but it's certainly possible to overvalue a set and I am not warm to the idea of putting all my money in when it is likely that I might be a 65-35 dog to make the FH.Steve

[Blink20 0]

Thank you for all you comments. I am not sold on the idea of raising preflop PP's below 10-10 as I regard them as speculative hands' date=' but I may do some experimenting in this regard.[/quote']They generally are speculative hands, especially at this limit. However, unique situations, like the one you were in, arise that you would play them more like a made hand, playing your position and following up with a continuation bet on the flop. More than likely your 8's are the best hand and your opponent won't outflop you. But agreed, most of the time, you will just limp in with your 8's, in a multiway pot, in unfavorable position, etc.

Concerning the play on the flop' date=' I see the merits of pushing here after I got reraised, and simply calling seems too passive, so perhaps a more general question is when do you lay down a set? I agree there are much more intimidating boards for straight and flush possibilities than the board I faced, but it's certainly possible to overvalue a set and I am not warm to the idea of putting all my money in when it is likely that I might be a 65-35 dog to make the FH..[/quote']There just aren't many situations you are going to fold a set on the flop. There also aren't any absolutes in poker, so sometimes you will come across that rare situation you will fold a set. As far as this hand is concerned, there is enough money in the pot to push your hand all in. Most of the time you will have the best hand and you will be extracting full value from your opponent's call. Sometimes you will be against the straight, but again with all the money in the pot, you are all in with two cards to come so you are slightly better than 2-1 to make your boat and take it down. In the rare case you have an underset, well, you just gotta pay it off.Just remember in poker, the money goes to the aggressor. You played this hand too weak by folding your set. GL at the tables :-)

[PrtyPSux 0]

Thank you for all you comments. I am not sold on the idea of raising preflop PP's below 10-10 as I regard them as speculative hands, but I may do some experimenting in this regard.

id say raise every time u are in the CO or button if there are less than 3 limpers in front,, other than that treat it like a 44 or 33...

Concerning the play on the flop, I see the merits of pushing here after I got reraised, and simply calling seems too passive, so perhaps a more general question is when do you lay down a set? I agree there are much more intimidating boards for straight and flush possibilities than the board I faced, but it's certainly possible to overvalue a set and I am not warm to the idea of putting all my money in when it is likely that I might be a 65-35 dog to make the FH.Steve

hardly ever fold a set..

[Absolute 0]

Why aren't you raising 88 from the CO?This is an easy easy easy raise on any table in any city in any country in any universe.No, it's realy not.You're not very good at NL, are you?

Here we go again. Yes it is. With one limper in the CO, this is an always raise. If you'd like, we could have everyone here tell you that it's a raise, then go post it at 2+2 and have everyone there tell you its a raise, and then have you tell us all that we're wrong. That would be pretty familiar to us all, wouldn't it?I am beginning to think you just aren't that good at poker.Raising 88 in the CO with one person in front of you is easy.You should do it "if you like money"

[PrtyPSux 0]

Why aren't you raising 88 from the CO?This is an easy easy easy raise on any table in any city in any country in any universe.No, it's realy not.You're not very good at NL, are you?

Here we go again. Yes it is. With one limper in the CO, this is an always raise. If you'd like, we could have everyone here tell you that it's a raise, then go post it at 2+2 and have everyone there tell you its a raise, and then have you tell us all that we're wrong. That would be pretty familiar to us all, wouldn't it?I am beginning to think you just aren't that good at poker.Raising 88 in the CO with one person in front of you is easy.You should do it "if you like money"

yeah, smash also advocates limping w/ JJ .. ??? ...just different strats I guess..

[Smasharoo 0]

yeah, smash also advocates limping w/ JJ Um, no again.You guys are right, I'm not very good at poker.You geniuses know it all. Good luck.

[Absolute 0]

yeah, smash also advocates limping w/ JJ Um, no again.You guys are right, I'm not very good at poker.You geniuses know it all. Good luck.

I don't think you would suggest to limp with JJ certainly.But I was kind of surprised you don't support a raise here.It's a very standard play.

[Smasharoo 0]

But I was kind of surprised you don't support a raise here.It's a very standard play.Really, given the stack sizes, it's a stupid play.With deep stacks there's vastly more potential value in hitting a set than there is in raising, gettig called, then figuring out what to do on an AT4 flop.

[Blink20 0]

But I was kind of surprised you don't support a raise here.It's a very standard play.Really, given the stack sizes, it's a stupid play.

Actually, given the stack sizes, it makes the play even better. It just seems now you are fishing for a way to prove raising is not right, but it clearly is. The only limper, utg, which generally indicates a stronger hand, is the short stack at the table. Another reason you can raise here is because more often than not, you have a better hand then him. Short stacks at this limit and low limits in general are notorious for bad play, limping in with weak hands. Someone who has built their stack, or buys in with the max on the other hand generally is more solid.As far as the blinds, they are both about even with the max buy in. That means they may or may not defend their blinds, but it gives no extra indication whether or not raising with 8's is a good play or not.So again, the only indication you have according to stack size, is the utg, which indicates he is most likely a weaker player not paying attention to position.I would like to hear your analysis on how the stack sizes indicate raising as a horrible play.

[Smasharoo 0]

Rasing is even worse against a bad player who will call your flop contiuation bet with middle pair.do you see why?

[custom36 4]

I missed Smash. Good to have him in the strat section.Though I see Smash's point (and would often agree with him if there were 2 limpers), I think you absolutely have to raise here. Don't let the blinds see a cheap (or free) flop and take control of the hand. If you get it heads-up with position, there's a good chance you can take it unimproved on the flop.