882 replies to this topic

[CobaltBlue]

DJ Vu, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 5:16 PM, said:

4th! Edit: MLB issued a statement: "...Major League Baseball vehemently disagrees with the decision rendered today by arbitrator Shyam Das."That's an interesting stance to take since it's probably a good thing for the league that the reigning MVP isn't getting suspended. I'm interested to find out the details of all this.

"MLB executive vice president Rob Manfred and union head Michael Weiner are part of the arbitration panel, and management and the union almost always split their votes, leaving Das, the independent panel member, to make the decision.'It has always been Major League Baseball's position that no matter who tests positive, we will exhaust all avenues in pursuit of the appropriate discipline. We have been true to that position in every instance, because baseball fans deserve nothing less,' Manfred said."I agree that it should be a good thing for them, but I guess they don't want their drug-testing policy to be weakened. I think it's interesting that he basically says that they're more interested in punishment than truth.

[DJ Vu]

"According to one of the sources, the collector, after getting Braun's sample, was supposed to take the sample to FedEx/Kinkos for shipping but thought it was closed because it was late on a Saturday. As has occurred in some other instances, the collector took the sample home and kept it refrigerated. Policy states that the sample is supposed to get to FedEx as soon as possible."This is how he won his appeal? I don't think that's going to change a lot of minds about whether he actually took a banned substance. But that would make sense why MLB would be upset with the decision.

[speedz99]

I enjoyed those links.

DJ Vu, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 3:16 PM, said:

Vindication! Ryan Braun won his appeal and won't be suspended.

Heh, I came here to post the article, but I had completely forgotten that I called it. As if I needed some ridiculous panel to tell me that I'm always right.

CobaltBlue, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 4:00 PM, said:

I think it's interesting that he basically says that they're more interested in punishment than truth.

I think it's more idiotic than interesting.

[speedz99]

DJ Vu, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 4:07 PM, said:

"According to one of the sources, the collector, after getting Braun's sample, was supposed to take the sample to FedEx/Kinkos for shipping but thought it was closed because it was late on a Saturday. As has occurred in some other instances, the collector took the sample home and kept it refrigerated. Policy states that the sample is supposed to get to FedEx as soon as possible."This is how he won his appeal? I don't think that's going to change a lot of minds about whether he actually took a banned substance. But that would make sense why MLB would be upset with the decision.

I wouldn't say that without doing some good old-fashioned research into whether or not that would make a difference to the numbers. Some blood values will definitely change over time.It does seem pretty weak though.

[DJ Vu]

speedz99, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 3:13 PM, said:

I wouldn't say that without doing some good old-fashioned research into whether or not that would make a difference to the numbers. Some blood values will definitely change over time.It does seem pretty weak though.

David Schoenfield ‏ @dschoenfieldUrge you to read updated newser. Braun didn't appeal evidence of tampering or science. Argued protocol not followed.

[speedz99]

But there has to be some reason why this makes a difference, otherwise he'll look ridiculous saying that this vindicates him.

[mrdannyg]

DJ Vu, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 7:07 PM, said:

"According to one of the sources, the collector, after getting Braun's sample, was supposed to take the sample to FedEx/Kinkos for shipping but thought it was closed because it was late on a Saturday. As has occurred in some other instances, the collector took the sample home and kept it refrigerated. Policy states that the sample is supposed to get to FedEx as soon as possible."This is how he won his appeal? I don't think that's going to change a lot of minds about whether he actually took a banned substance. But that would make sense why MLB would be upset with the decision.

speedz99, on Thursday, February 23rd, 2012, 7:20 PM, said:

But there has to be some reason why this makes a difference, otherwise he'll look ridiculous saying that this vindicates him.

I don't think that's the case - the USDA or whatever president was quoted as saying that this is common practice when the Fedex offices are closed. I'm sure there are timeframes associated with it, but seems likely that a day or two doesn't make a difference.Since protocol wasn't followed, I can only assume the issue of tampering can't be completely eliminated, hence the decision. It's no different than a guy getting off on a technicality on a legal matter. No one can really say the guy is innocent based on the decision, but that's why anyone defending themselves maintains their innocence all the way through, right? So when something like this happens, you can say "yeah, well I was innocent anyway, but this was the easiest way to close the case."

[The Ocho]

This is asinine. Drug tests have a chain of custody, they are sealed, then the shipping bag they are put in is also sealed. Both with tamper proof measures.Many times tests don't get to the lab for a couple days. You just don't have testosterone show up in your urine.

[Theraflu]

mrdannyg, on Friday, February 24th, 2012, 6:03 AM, said:

Since protocol wasn't followed, I can only assume the issue of tampering can't be completely eliminated, hence the decision. It's no different than a guy getting off on a technicality on a legal matter. No one can really say the guy is innocent based on the decision, but that's why anyone defending themselves maintains their innocence all the way through, right? So when something like this happens, you can say "yeah, well I was innocent anyway, but this was the easiest way to close the case."

This seems to be pretty accurate. His press conference today was really well done, and he basically said why they believe the sample was tampered with. Well worth the ~10 minute watch.

[speedz99]

The Ocho, on Friday, February 24th, 2012, 10:26 AM, said:

This is asinine. Drug tests have a chain of custody, they are sealed, then the shipping bag they are put in is also sealed. Both with tamper proof measures.Many times tests don't get to the lab for a couple days. You just don't have testosterone show up in your urine.

Theraflu, on Friday, February 24th, 2012, 1:02 PM, said:

His press conference today was really well done, and he basically said why they believe the sample was tampered with. Well worth the ~10 minute watch.

Yup. He's either the most convincing liar of all time, or the Ochos of the world are missing something.

[timwakefield]

speedz99, on Friday, February 24th, 2012, 6:04 PM, said:

He's either the most convincing liar of all time

He's certainly 8 billion times more believable than Mark "I'm not here to talk about the past" McGwire.Ryan "I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body" Braun.P.S. Here's the first half of the press conference. http://www.csnbayare...ence-part-1.htm

[mrdannyg]

The Ocho, on Friday, February 24th, 2012, 2:26 PM, said:

This is asinine. Drug tests have a chain of custody, they are sealed, then the shipping bag they are put in is also sealed. Both with tamper proof measures.Many times tests don't get to the lab for a couple days. You just don't have testosterone show up in your urine.

They have a chain of custody. A chain that involves a guy getting paid $12/hour having unsupervised access to the sample and additional sample bags available to him (I assume) for as much as several days.

speedz99, on Friday, February 24th, 2012, 7:04 PM, said:

Yup. He's either the most convincing liar of all time, or the Ochos of the world are missing something.

Despite my comment above, I actually think Ocho is completely right on this. But there's plenty of things, in baseball and elsewhere, that people who really care and really look into believe one thing, but the general public believes another. Half of these guys who have been caught with fake IDs were guys who were whispered about by plenty of baseball people (other's suspected of age fraud: Albert Pujols). In this case, we have a handler being paid $12/hour inexplicably not following his organization's rules precisely for a suspicious reason (one of your two main duties involves fedexing something, and you don't know when the closest fedex office closes?), and an independent arbitrator ruled you to be not guilty. How could the public look at that and call him guilty?The whole thing is ridiculous though, since we all know if he had muscles like McGwire or Bagwell, people would have been calling him juiced before this test, and this test would've confirmed everything, regardless of the reversal.

[DJ Vu]

So I guess baseball is going through with this extra wild card team. Two wild card teams from each league will play a one game playoff to make it into the playoffs. The winner plays the #1 seed.Because this was added so late, there are travel issues. So, the team with home field advantage in the first round actually opens up on the road. You play two games on the road and then games three through five are at home. They did this for a few years when the wild card was first introduced and it was stupid then too.More schedule details here.

[The Ocho]

mrdannyg, on Monday, February 27th, 2012, 5:46 AM, said:

They have a chain of custody. A chain that involves a guy getting paid $12/hour having unsupervised access to the sample and additional sample bags available to him (I assume) for as much as several days.Despite my comment above, I actually think Ocho is completely right on this. But there's plenty of things, in baseball and elsewhere, that people who really care and really look into believe one thing, but the general public believes another. Half of these guys who have been caught with fake IDs were guys who were whispered about by plenty of baseball people (other's suspected of age fraud: Albert Pujols). In this case, we have a handler being paid $12/hour inexplicably not following his organization's rules precisely for a suspicious reason (one of your two main duties involves fedexing something, and you don't know when the closest fedex office closes?), and an independent arbitrator ruled you to be not guilty. How could the public look at that and call him guilty?The whole thing is ridiculous though, since we all know if he had muscles like McGwire or Bagwell, people would have been calling him juiced before this test, and this test would've confirmed everything, regardless of the reversal.

Why would he know where all the fedex delivery schedules? He had to travel to wherever Braun was. That may not have been somewhere he was familiar with. BTW, followed the rules 100% correctly. Braun basically convinced an arbitrator that this guy could have possibly done something that was not detected, so therefore it's invalid. It's 100% safer for someone who has undergone the proper training a protocol to store the item, than it sit in a warehouse with 1000's of other shipments over the weekend. Or even worse, in a drop box that is not monitored at all.

[speedz99]

The Ocho, on Friday, March 2nd, 2012, 2:52 PM, said:

Why would he know where all the fedex delivery schedules? He had to travel to wherever Braun was. That may not have been somewhere he was familiar with.

This is...are you serious? It's his job to drop shit off at a local fedex, you're really trying to excuse the fact that he was unable to figure out that there were open locations within close proximity? That's absolutely absurd, regardless of the other issues at hand. "Oh well, it's supposed to go to a labaratory for testing, but it's getting a bit late, and there's probably no open locations around here, I guess I'll just take it home with me. No need to take two seconds to call the company or check online to make sure. What could go wrong?"The guy fucked up. MLB is saying he followed protocol because they don't want to admit that, by extension, they fucked up.

The Ocho, on Friday, March 2nd, 2012, 2:52 PM, said:

BTW, followed the rules 100% correctly. Braun basically convinced an arbitrator that this guy could have possibly done something that was not detected, so therefore it's invalid.

The arbitrator who has never sided with a player before. Does that not make you pause to think that maybe there's something you might be missing here?

The Ocho, on Friday, March 2nd, 2012, 2:52 PM, said:

It's 100% safer for someone who has undergone the proper training a protocol to store the item, than it sit in a warehouse with 1000's of other shipments over the weekend. Or even worse, in a drop box that is not monitored at all.

100% safer than [however save the warehouse is] does not make it 100% safe. What I still don't understand is why MLB didn't make the right PR move, take the minor embarrassment of poor protocol, and laud the the whole process which exonerated (sort of) one of the game's best players.

[mrdannyg]

DJ Vu, on Friday, March 2nd, 2012, 5:22 PM, said:

So I guess baseball is going through with this extra wild card team. Two wild card teams from each league will play a one game playoff to make it into the playoffs. The winner plays the #1 seed.Because this was added so late, there are travel issues. So, the team with home field advantage in the first round actually opens up on the road. You play two games on the road and then games three through five are at home. They did this for a few years when the wild card was first introduced and it was stupid then too.More schedule details here.

I just really don't get this. It's like Selig just wants to show what he can do. How does this play-in game improve the experience at all? I just don't see that one game generating enough money to counter the dampening effect on the popularity of the next playoff series.The only thing I like about it is that it gives the division winners a significant advantage, since the wild card team normally would have been able to set up their rotation just like the division winners, but now will be forced to use one of its best starters in the play-in game.

[DJ Vu]

mrdannyg, on Monday, March 5th, 2012, 7:12 AM, said:

The only thing I like about it is that it gives the division winners a significant advantage, since the wild card team normally would have been able to set up their rotation just like the division winners, but now will be forced to use one of its best starters in the play-in game.

Yeah, but what if the two best teams in the league are in the same division? You could have them playing a tie-breaker after the season while the #3 and #5 seeds (because the loser of the tie-breaker would be the #4) have clinched early. I think the problem with all the different possible playoff formats is that the division winner is weighted too heavily against overall record. I'd rather have the division winners get automatic playoff berths, but have it not mean anything regarding seeding.

[mrdannyg]

DJ Vu, on Monday, March 5th, 2012, 1:47 PM, said:

Yeah, but what if the two best teams in the league are in the same division? You could have them playing a tie-breaker after the season while the #3 and #5 seeds (because the loser of the tie-breaker would be the #4) have clinched early. I think the problem with all the different possible playoff formats is that the division winner is weighted too heavily against overall record. I'd rather have the division winners get automatic playoff berths, but have it not mean anything regarding seeding.

I agree it doesn't really work in the current competitive environment, with 4 of the top 5 teams in the MLB playing in two divisions. In general though, I like the idea of playing a schedule weighted towards divisions, and giving a lot of weight to the division winners.It seems pretty likely that the rule about two teams in the same division not playing each other in the LDS was just designed to keep the Red Sox and Yankees in as long as possible - not a lot of logic to it, IMO.

[The Ocho]

speedz99, on Sunday, March 4th, 2012, 7:39 PM, said:

This is...are you serious? It's his job to drop shit off at a local fedex, you're really trying to excuse the fact that he was unable to figure out that there were open locations within close proximity? That's absolutely absurd, regardless of the other issues at hand. "Oh well, it's supposed to go to a labaratory for testing, but it's getting a bit late, and there's probably no open locations around here, I guess I'll just take it home with me. No need to take two seconds to call the company or check online to make sure. What could go wrong?"The guy fucked up. MLB is saying he followed protocol because they don't want to admit that, by extension, they fucked up.The arbitrator who has never sided with a player before. Does that not make you pause to think that maybe there's something you might be missing here?100% safer than [however save the warehouse is] does not make it 100% safe. What I still don't understand is why MLB didn't make the right PR move, take the minor embarrassment of poor protocol, and laud the the whole process which exonerated (sort of) one of the game's best players.

Some of these collectors have to travel great distances to do the collections. If went to the site to do the drop off and was late he probably couldn't get to another one. He also could have made the decision, that site is 20 miles away, it closes in 15 minutes, no way I make it, and just went home. That is very reasonable, and what I would expect. There is very possible we are missing something, but from everything that has been put out publicly, he followed protocol.

[speedz99]

The Ocho, on Monday, March 5th, 2012, 1:18 PM, said:

Some of these collectors have to travel great distances to do the collections. If went to the site to do the drop off and was late he probably couldn't get to another one. He also could have made the decision, that site is 20 miles away, it closes in 15 minutes, no way I make it, and just went home. That is very reasonable, and what I would expect. There is very possible we are missing something, but from everything that has been put out publicly, he followed protocol.

http://espn.go.com/m...t-system-failed"The collector, identified by two people with knowledge of the case as Dino Laurenzi Jr., took the sample at about 4:30 p.m. on Saturday, Oct. 1, after Milwaukee opened the playoffs with a 4-1 win over Arizona, and left Miller Park about 30 minutes later with the urine in a triple-seal container manufactured by Capitol Vial. Braun said the collector's son was with his father at the ballpark.Braun, however, said at least five FedEx locations within 5 miles were open until 9 p.m. and there also was a 24-hour location. But Braun said the sample wasn't left with FedEx until 1:30 p.m. on Oct. 3."I assume that Braun was able to provide proof of this, which would be why the arbitrator sided with him. Obviously if there really were no locations still open in the area, the appeal would have been denied."The collector didn't think the sample would be sent until Monday to the WADA-certified lab in Montreal, and believed it would be more secure at home than at a FedEx office during the weekend."This I can understand...he assumed that even if he did get it to a location, it wouldn't be sent. But that's not the protocol. The protocol is to take it to a FedEx if you can, not to make a judgement call.My guess is that the collector is an honest guy who made a very, very minor mistake. And I honestly wouldn't be surprised by anything regarding the test itself...false positive, true positive, some kind of lab screwup, etc.