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Not Sure Where Aq Is At


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not much in the way of reads, game is tighter than usual, but still looseish.I'm not certain of any street, but hated the way the hand went. My plan was to c/r this turn, lead the river if i was HU or check/call if it was still 3-way. kind of tricky, but these guys will call with decent ranges here, and i think my protected c/r is too strong to 3-bet with AK.kind of tricky, but i was trying to maximize using relative position. good plan gone bad, or is there a much better plan?Poker Room skinLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $2/$410 playersConverterPre-flop: (10 players) Awesome-O is UTG+1 with [Ac] [Qh] UTG folds, Awesome-O raises, UTG+2 3-bets, 4 folds, Button calls, 2 folds, Awesome-O calls.Flop: [8s] [9c] [As] (10.5SB, 3 players)Awesome-O checks, UTG+2 bets, Button calls, Awesome-O calls.Turn: [9d] (6.75BB, 3 players)Awesome-O checks, UTG+2 checks, Button checks.River: [3h] (6.75BB, 3 players)Awesome-O bets

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yes u still call down the 3bet unless u have reads that he only raises w/AK :PI prefer betting out the flop, if utg+2 raises then most likely the other guy foldsso u have a clear idea of where u're atand does PP (JJ+) have discipline to fold to a donkbet? at 2/4 I doubt it

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Just by reviewing a couple posts of yours. Its obvious you have a thing called "Fancy play Syndrome" And in the long run your losing out in bets which = to $ which is PROFIT!This is LHE not NL which you could trap someone and play it slow then make a big move on later streets for villians chips. If you didn't know, well now you know.Preflop is standard in my view.Flop against this over aggresive player I would c/rTurn I would lead out. C'mon this aggresive player could be holding anything here and obviously the board has some draws out there, so checking will be Very Bad!gl 2 u! :club:

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Bet the flop!If you are not raised, you are good (unless of course you are slowplay/raised on the turn... that sucks and would be almost an automatic fold)If you are raised, I would lean towards folding. What is an EP player 3-betting against an EP Raiser? I like to default to AA-TT, AK, (and maybe 99, AQs).And with the button coldcalling a 2-bet.... UTG+2 has to hate that Ace if he has PP, otherwise, he probably hit TPTK.And if he has pocket pair, I don't think he is going to be raising your flop bet very often.I would lean towards b/f the way the action played out. That would be my default, and let only a strong read dictate otherwise. And if otherwise, I'm 3-betting the flop, calling a cap, and leading the turn. Probably b/f the turn unless I think UTG+2 is really reckless.But as I said, probably b/f the flop as a default.

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I hate a bet here. You really don't find out where you are at.The button can easily raise the flop with a hand like AJ, and then you'd have to 3 bet, and even THEN he might cap! The flop bet will NOT give as much info as a C/R. By C/Ring you get more info for cheap. By C/Ring, you are telling your opponent, "Hey, I'm strong here" for 2 bets, by 3 betting, he's saying "I'm stronger than you", and then you can easily c/c UI or MAYBEEEEEEE fold.By betting, you are saying "I have a piece", but it could be anything. If he raises, he's saying "Well I'm strong too", a 3bet by you shows huge signs of strength, but when he caps, you are getting the same info (that you are beat), for one more small bet.

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the button is 3-betting AJ into and early positio preflop raiser?I'm taking his preflop play into account.And if you think that is the case, why wouldn't you bet the flop?It always seems to me, a c/r is only going to slow down a hand like AK against a weaker player. And a hand like AJ & AK will probably just call you down anyway. A weaker player is not folding either. And, against a better player, they will realize that a c/r the flop is usually more of a sign of protecting a volerable hand or a semi-bluff than it is showning strength as a moster (if it were, you would probably slowplay/raise the turn). And you could just as easily see a 3-bet from him with AJ on the flop as with AK, becaues he too is trying to define his hand on the cheaper streets.I don't think a c/r does that much more for you that a betting out in this spot. But a lot depends on the player and your read. Against a tighter straight forward player, I am probably b/f the flop. If it is a very loose/agg player, I am probably betting the flop again becaue I think my AQ is probably good and if he raises me, that doesn't change anything, I 3-bet, becuase I expect the LAAG to raise me with a lot of crap. Either way, I bet the flop and if depnding on the player I 3-bet or fold to a raise.If they are a solid/tricky player... then maybe I c/r at times.But I tend to believe players are decent straight forward players until I get a read otherwise. So my default, without reads, is to b/f this spot.Also, I don't like checking and possibly giving anyone a free card when we only have a semi-strong hand. (As happened on the turn. Who is afrid of the paired 9? What hands make sense to see a 3-bet and a calling 3 cold that the second 9 would help?)Seems like UGT has a big pair and hates the Ace, Button is drawing. UGT probably would have only called a flop bet and you could have bet the whole way for value.But maybe I'm wrong... as I often am.... :club: lol... hence why I still have a dayjob.... lol

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the button is 3-betting AJ into and early positio preflop raiser?I'm taking his preflop play into account.And if you think that is the case, why wouldn't you bet the flop?It always seems to me, a c/r is only going to slow down a hand like AK against a weaker player. And a hand like AJ & AK will probably just call you down anyway. A weaker player is not folding either. And, against a better player, they will realize that a c/r the flop is usually more of a sign of protecting a volerable hand or a semi-bluff than it is showning strength as a moster (if it were, you would probably slowplay/raise the turn). And you could just as easily see a 3-bet from him with AJ on the flop as with AK, becaues he too is trying to define his hand on the cheaper streets.I don't think a c/r does that much more for you that a betting out in this spot. But a lot depends on the player and your read. Against a tighter straight forward player, I am probably b/f the flop. If it is a very loose/agg player, I am probably betting the flop again becaue I think my AQ is probably good and if he raises me, that doesn't change anything, I 3-bet, becuase I expect the LAAG to raise me with a lot of crap. Either way, I bet the flop and if depnding on the player I 3-bet or fold to a raise.
Button is very capable of 3 betting in position with a variety of hands. AJ is one of them. To limit his range to AQ+ and high PPs is silly.You are not trying to get Button to fold (although it would be nice), you are trying to get value. A hand like KK will most likely just call down your bets (especially if you lead out), so again you are losing a small bet by not C/Ring. You are absolutely right in that C/Ring does not do that much more for you. But the fact is that it DOES do more for you. And limit is a game where you have to push those miniscule edges to be a top notch player. If I think I am ahead most of the time, I will usually just call the flop and raise the turn. Also folding the flop even to the tightest player for one more bet is bad. You'd have to put him specifically on AA.
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Button is very capable of 3 betting in position with a variety of hands. AJ is one of them. To limit his range to AQ+ and high PPs is silly.
Hmmm... I'm not 100% sure it is silly. Maybe a little bit of a concervative estimated range, but not silly.What do you raise with from EP? I typically raise AA-TT, AK-AQ, AJs, KQs (occationally ATs, AJ, KQ, KJs, 99, 88).What do you 3-bet with against an EP raiser? I would expect that most decent players would only 3-bet with a little better range than what they think the orginal raiser would raise with. You might be able to throw in AJs, KQs, and 99. That will make you a 11:9 favorite over what I would consider a solid EP raising range. True, position gives the 3-better some extra value, but I'm not 3-betting with much less than that. And as I said, if you know he will 3-bet with mcuh less will, then that changes the approach, as I said. But that is typically my default without reads.The rest of the debate, I'm thinking about........ :club:
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i like leading out because if he's aggressive, he's going to raise and most likely knock out the button playerI would prefer thishis range of 3betting pf could def. be higher than just AQ+NOWif he has AK, please tell me how you plan on getting away from this hand?just lead out, get isolated, and get it down hu. And now that he pulled the raise for free cards, you can either 3bet him on the flop next time, or lead out the turn

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Hmmm... I'm not 100% sure it is silly. Maybe a little bit of a concervative estimated range, but not silly.What do you raise with from EP? I typically raise AA-TT, AK-AQ, AJs, KQs (occationally ATs, AJ, KQ, KJs, 99, 88).What do you 3-bet with against an EP raiser? I would expect that most decent players would only 3-bet with a little better range than what they think the orginal raiser would raise with. You might be able to throw in AJs, KQs, and 99. That will make you a 11:9 favorite over what I would consider a solid EP raising range. True, position gives the 3-better some extra value, but I'm not 3-betting with much less than that. And as I said, if you know he will 3-bet with mcuh less will, then that changes the approach, as I said. But that is typically my default without reads.The rest of the debate, I'm thinking about........ :club:
You are asking the wrong guy :D My 3 bet range especially with position can be ANYTHING. But I am a LAGtard. My range is usually ATs+, AJ os+, KTs, KJos+, and 66+. Sometimes if I feel I'm playing too tight, I'll 3 with T8s :D
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You are asking the wrong guy :D My 3 bet range especially with position can be ANYTHING. But I am a LAGtard. My range is usually ATs+, AJ os+, KTs, KJos+, and 66+. Sometimes if I feel I'm playing too tight, I'll 3 with T8s :club:
And you enjoy it too huh! :D hehe
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sorry if this comes off as arrogant, but there is a lot of bad advice in this thread. but my advice may be terrible also, take it for what it's worth. (and in general, take all advice on any forum with a heavy grain of salt... there is plenty of bad advice everywhere.)1. your opponents are almost never putting you on ranges and calculating equities. it makes no difference what your opening range is unless you know for a fact that your opponents are 2nd-level or higher AND they are paying attention AND they actually know wtf your range is.2. in loose avg games, ppl are straightforward and similarly, they think in a very straightforward manner. if you get aggressive on this flop, people think "ace", NOT "oesd maybe? set maybe? sometimes an ace. sometimes it's a bluff. or sometimes he is trying to knock out button."3. there is a purpose to things. you don't just bet because you hit a pair. you bet for value, or you bet to get heads-up, or you check to check-raise for value, or you check to check-call for wa/wb play, etc.alright, i'll get off my soapbox. again, sorry if i come off as a ****, and take my advice for what it's worth.utg+2's three-bet is standard, good broadways and mid/high pp's usually (if the game is passive, lean more towards high pp's since mid pp's would cold-call, and if it's more tag-ish, include more mid pp's) button's cold-call of three bets is usually a pocket pair or a decent ace.given this range, the flop just screams wa/wb-ish, except it's not wa/wb because you're wb far less often than you're wa, since you're only worried about AK and AA/99/88 realistically.so that said, i think betting out this flop is a mistake, UNLESS you know that utg+2 is a spewer who will not only raise KK-TT but also get stubborn with it. to be more precise, if that is the case, you bet/three-bet and fire any turn and river for value.but you need a read for that. absent a read, your line is OKAY (especially on that awesome turn), but unless you KNOW that the game texture is on the aggressive side (i don't know, you don't mention anything about aggression in your post)*, you might want to cr the flop for value so you can avoid these unpleasant situations where the turn is checked through.also, bc a spade turn sucks (even more when it then gets checked around), you might want to cr the flop right away. if the flop was rainbow, it's closer between cr'ing the flop and your line.also, to clarify, if button had folded, then your line is significantly better than cr'ing the flop, imo. HU you are even less worried about protecting your hand here and more about maximizing value, and ppl tend to cbet turns hu a lot.so to recap, i think betting this flop is a mistake, but not a huge one (bc the pot is big and protecting is somewhat important), and i think your line is good overall but it leans a little to cr'ing for value right away on the flop.but note that i haven't played below 10/20 in a while and the game texture does change somewhat significantly (people are a little less stubborn, they think a little more, and they will often check this turn, even HU, with KK-TT, but similarly, they would also fold to a flop cr oftentimes with KK-TT, and many times to a turn cr too). so again, take my advice with a grain of salt, i could be way off, etc.aseemp.s. knightowl, where do you get the idea that utg+2 is "overaggressive"? You seem to be making that up out of nowhere.

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akishore, I, in no way, take your post as arogant or that you are being an a******.TB17 & akishore, I really appreciate your posts and advice. This as been a difficult spot for me, when I raise from Mid or Early position with AQ or AJ and am 3-bet from late position and a flop Axx. And I have had and still have a hard time determining the proper line.I use to think that c/r was without a doubt the correct default line, as TB17 said, you are telling your opponent, "Hey, I'm strong here" for 2 bets, and if he 3 bets, he's saying "I'm stronger than you".However, in recent past I have noticed that when I c/r a significant perecentage of the time I get called down by AK. My thoughts were, as you said, if he has AK I expect to be 3-bet. If he doesn't, I would expect him to only call the flop, maybe fold. But that often didn't seem to be the case.(FYI.... I'm currently only playing $2/$4 & $3/$6 FR and $1/$2 SHL... after a recent debacle at $10/$20 SHL)So I started thinking that maybe a c/r is representing too much strength and causing many people with TPTK to think I've got 2pair or trips. So, that is when I started thinking well, what would someone 3-bet with? How would they respond to a preflop call and a flop lead?The answer to the first question was, I figured many players these days are ok, and I don't think it is too obsurd, maybe a tad concervative, to take the default read as my opponent being an ok player who may have read SSHE, and somewhat follow the advice (but maybe a little on the looser side, and going a little too far post flop). But in general, that is what I default to until I have a read on a player. So, based on SSHE starting hand 3-bet requirements, we've got AA-TT, AKs, & AK. As I said, you may be able to through a couple more hands in there like AQ, AJs, KQs, 99. But anymore than that I would think would be atypical LAGG.So, I then started thinking, about the answer to the 2nd question. If I saw someone raise from EP, and call a 3-bet.... I would probably say, 'OK I doubt he has AA-QQ or he probably would have capped.' He might have only called with JJ-TT, or the like, because the button is in too (fearing overs falling with two opponents). It is likely that he raised a strong Ace, maybe KQ, or even KJsSo, when the Axx flop comes, what would I think if someone bet out? I would think, 'OK, he liked his hand preflop and raised, but not enought to cap... probably no AA-QQ.' And now with the ace on the flop, he likes his hand again (enough to bet when OOP to a 3-better and a coldcaller). Probably not JJ-TT because he probably would hate that flop with a 3-bettor and a coldcaller. If he had KQ, KJ, or the like this flop would suck for him too. He Probably has an Ace. How strong of any Ace would he raise with from EP preflop? Probably not much lower than AJ. So, he probably has AK-AJ. Well, if I've got a pocket pair, I'm toast. I have no odds, I should just get out of the way. If I've got a crappy Ace, AT or AJ, I might just call down (hope to hit two pair or that my vulerable kicker holds up), and hope the button plays along to help my drawing odds a little. If I've got AQ or AK, I'm going to raise to see just how strong he is and hopefully chace the button off some draws.So, I started thinking of this as my default for a typical player at the 2/4-3/6ish limits.Maybe I'm over estimating thought process and analytical skills of a typical player. Maybe I'm just being a little results oriented with my recent observations with the c/r line. Maybe AK is calling down when the flop is more like AQx, AJx, or ATx, thinking I might have flopped two pair when I c/r, but with an Ace-rag board, maybe they are not. I might have to pay closer attention to the additional texture of the flop.... hmmm....I don't know... but I do know that, you are right, there is a lot of bad advice on the forums. And sometimes it may come from me. But sometimes it is on purpose... not to screw up others, but so that better players can tell me when I'm way off and I can get into debates like this one to try and help fix a leak. It's a great way to learn! :club: I absolutely hate when people just say, "No you're wrong, that is horrible poker... you should do x instead of y". Yeah, that is an intellegent post, thanks for contributing. So, I really appricate the detailed posts!!I'm still uncertain has to the best way to approach this situation. I know there is room for improvement for me in this situation. I really appricate the debate from you guys and I'm re-evaluating my line in this spot.Anyway.... Thanks again! This has been a good thread (if you ask me)!

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I check this flop for information.Assuming villains are decent, if the flop is bet and raised, I comfortably fold rather than passively calling down numerous big bets the rest of the way and just hoping my hand ends up best.If it is not 2 bets to me when it comes back around on the flop, I play this hand as if I am ahead.I check-raise for value.And I lead the rest of the way.--CM

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I check this flop for information.Assuming villains are decent, if the flop is bet and raised, I comfortably fold rather than passively calling down numerous big bets the rest of the way and just hoping my hand ends up best.If it is not 2 bets to me when it comes back around on the flop, I play this hand as if I am ahead.I check-raise for value.And I lead the rest of the way.--CM
:club: I don't understand this at all!UGT+2 is the 3-better. If we check the flop, I fully expect him to bet. Just because the button does not raise it, that does not mean UTG+2 doesn't have AK. That doesn't really tell you anything about his hand.How the hell do you know that if you check, and UTG+2 bets, that the button does not raise AJ. I would if I were the button (of course, I wouldn't be coldcalling 3bets so I wouldn't ever be in the buttons position, but anyway). The button sees you check... you could easily have raised TT before the flop and called one more bet and given up to the Ace flop with a 3-bettor and another coldcaller. UTG+2 could be Cbetting a strong PP like QQ or KK, or a Strong Ace. The almost has button has to raise to define any Ace in that spot.Yes, you can make a case for folding if it is two back to you when you check, but I don't think it is a strong one and you still have NO IDEA where you are if UTG+2 bets and the button calls. That did absolutely nothing to gain info from UTG+2 and define your hand.But that is just my to cents... have a good one!! :D
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Top 3 worst bits of advice so far (in no particular order):

I check this flop for information.Assuming villains are decent, if the flop is bet and raised, I comfortably fold rather than passively calling down numerous big bets the rest of the way and just hoping my hand ends up best.
i like leading out because if he's aggressive, he's going to raise and most likely knock out the button playerI would prefer this
I tend to believe players are decent straight forward players until I get a read otherwise. So my default, without reads, is to b/f this spot.
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UGT+2 is the 3-better. If we check the flop, I fully expect him to bet. Just because the button does not raise it, that does not mean UTG+2 doesn't have AK. That doesn't really tell you anything about his hand.
Agreed.With our relative position, a check will allow us to see both players act first.But my info-check is to analyze Button's play only.Whether we lead out or check-raise the flop, I do not expect to gain reliable information on UTG right here.With a proper read on Button, gathering this info can save us bets when we are behind.If we are behind UTG, it will be more difficult to determine.So then after our our check, if we have not received significant reasons to think we are behind, the raise is done for value.Point: I play this hand aggressively, unless/until given reason to think otherwise.
So I started thinking that maybe a c/r is representing too much strength and causing many people with TPTK to think I've got 2pair or trips
Why is this bad?--CM
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Agreed.With our relative position, a check will allow us to see both players act first.But my info-check is to analyze Button's play only.Whether we lead out or check-raise the flop, I do not expect to gain reliable information on UTG right here.With a proper read on Button, gathering this info can save us bets when we are behind.If we are behind UTG, it will be more difficult to determine.So then after our our check, if we have not received significant reasons to think we are behind, the raise is done for value.Point: I play this hand aggressively, unless/until given reason to think otherwise.
I see (I think). So your thought is that you would rather try to gain some more relaible information about the button, than try to gain less relaible information about UTG+2?If that is your intent, I can see this being a viable option.
Why is this bad?
Only because I don't want to scare UGT+2 way from giving me the info I'm looking for. I want to tell him I have a good hand, but don't want him to be worried about his AK. He won't fold it (if I thought he would lay down TPTK, then it would be great, but it isn't happening often enough for that to be a goal), but may only call it down instead of raising me telling me I'm beat so I can get out of the way... and thus, instead I would end up betting and getting called the whole way while I'm only second best.
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I see (I think). So your thought is that you would rather try to gain some more relaible information about the button, than try to gain less relaible information about UTG+2?If that is your intent, I can see this being a viable option.
Yes.In my opinion, it would take too many bets to get a true read on what UTG has.So, against an preflop raiser like this who has position on you, it is often just as cheap to take him to showdown (rather than bet and raise at him several times on earlier streets to see what he does).
Bet the flop!If you are raised, I would lean towards folding.
The reason I don't like this strategy is because I would expect the Preflop Raiser to defend his preflop play by raising a lot of hands here.Thus I would not trust the info that his flop raise gives me.And I would not feel comfortable laying my hand down right away.In contrast to this, I would view Button's flop raise over the Preflop Raiser as more significant.And as I said, with a specific read, I might be willing to lay down my hand in that scenario.--CM
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This has pretty much become the same argument by the same people. Both lines aren't bad here, so stop trying to prove the other one wrong with the SAME points. I hated a bet at first, but I found it's not a bad play at times, though I still prefer a C/R.And Abba's post is why our strat forums suck.

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wow, glad this generated so much discussion. fwiw, at PR, 3-betting ranges tend to be pretty wide. less so EP against EP raisers, but still wider than you'd think.also, i simply never lead out in PFR's, so betting out isn't really an option.the cold-caller was not terrible, but loose enough that i was almost certain i was ahead of him. standard would be c/ring the flop, calling down a 3-bet. what scared me off is realizing that i would probably lose button by doing this, when he was probably drawing to 2-3 outs.given that i'm not sure where the 3-better is at, and i'm almost certainly ahead of the button, i really like the idea of getting a bit tricky in this hand, in terms of manipulating relative position. frankly, i think there's good arguments for:- c/ring flop, calling down a 3-bet.- c/ring turn (!)- c/c flop, bet/call turn, and either bet/call or check/call river.i've noticed definite tendencies towards over-aggression on later streets, and i don't feel like i take advantage of this enough. my original plan was c/ring the turn, to take advantage of trapping the button.in situations like this, how important is it to trap button? he probably only has 2-3 outs, but the pot is getting pretty bloated. how badly do we want to string him along, compared to getting value/avoiding spews vs 3-better and/or defining our hand?

Just by reviewing a couple posts of yours. Its obvious you have a thing called "Fancy play Syndrome" And in the long run your losing out in bets which = to $ which is PROFIT!
i did notice this, and appreciate the concern. i've just been getting back into LHE after a long lay-off, so some of my FPS is unintended. while i probably won't get serious again for awhile, i'm interested in getting competitive in higher limit games, which means i should be able to analyze situations well enough to use FPS to my advantage at 2/4.at places like PokerStars or Pokerroom, people tend to be attentive, even though they're bad. i think that works to our advantage if we're able to manipulate their attentiveness, given their badness. at PR especially there's often several players to raised pots, and i think this allows us a lot of opportunities to get fancy and really maximize.in some situations though, like this one, i seem to be overanalyzing, and passiving myself to giving free draws.
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