aaq5 flops a set, pl o/8

[strategy 4]

PokerStars Game #1546107267: Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2005/04/18 - 20:29:45 (ET)Table 'Prisma' Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: Chickapee ($1.37 in chips)Seat 2: sassie1 ($3.55 in chips)Seat 3: johnrose ($0.50 in chips)Seat 4: ddes ($3.81 in chips)Seat 5: tank808 ($1 in chips)Seat 6: longnb ($8.64 in chips)Seat 7: BleedBlue44 ($4.32 in chips)Seat 8: rxguyswife ($4.98 in chips)Seat 9: gackt ($3.61 in chips)sassie1: posts small blind $0.01johnrose: posts big blind $0.02*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to BleedBlue44 [Ac Qd As 5s]longnb said, "ty"ddes: calls $0.02tank808: calls $0.02longnb: raises $0.09 to $0.11BleedBlue44: calls $0.11rxguyswife: calls $0.11gackt: calls $0.11Chickapee: foldssassie1: calls $0.10johnrose: calls $0.09ddes: calls $0.09tank808: calls $0.09*** FLOP *** [4s Ah 3s]sassie1: checksjohnrose: checksddes: checkstank808: checkslongnb: bets $0.88BleedBlue44: calls $0.88rxguyswife: foldsgackt: calls $0.88sassie1: foldssassie1 leaves the tablejohnrose: calls $0.39 and is all-inddes: foldstank808: folds*** TURN *** [4s Ah 3s] [8d]longnb: bets $3.76BleedBlue44: calls $3.33 and is all-insm0kin joins the table at seat #2gackt: calls $2.62 and is all-in*** RIVER *** [4s Ah 3s 8d] [5c]*** SHOW DOWN ***longnb: shows [5d 2s 2c 7c] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)BleedBlue44: mucks handlongnb collected $0.66 from side pot-2longnb collected $0.66 from side pot-2gackt: shows [2h 7h Qs 3c] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)longnb collected $2.22 from side pot-1gackt collected $2.22 from side pot-1longnb collected $2.22 from side pot-1gackt collected $2.22 from side pot-1johnrose: mucks handjohnrose leaves the tablelongnb collected $0.59 from main potgackt collected $0.58 from main potlongnb collected $0.59 from main potgackt collected $0.58 from main pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $13.19 Main pot $2.34. Side pot-1 $8.88. Side pot-2 $1.32. | Rake $0.65Board [4s Ah 3s 8d 5c]Seat 1: Chickapee (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: sassie1 (small blind) folded on the FlopSeat 3: johnrose (big blind) mucked [Kc Jc Ks Js]Seat 4: ddes folded on the FlopSeat 5: tank808 folded on the FlopSeat 6: longnb showed [5d 2s 2c 7c] and won ($6.94) with HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,ASeat 7: BleedBlue44 mucked [Ac Qd As 5s]Seat 8: rxguyswife folded on the FlopSeat 9: gackt showed [2h 7h Qs 3c] and won ($5.60) with HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,AMy call on the turn -- wrong? I did a very rough approximation and decided that if I got a call behind me, I had a very decent shot at having odds trying to draw to the high or a miracle low. Nut full house and nut flush draw with a very weak low draw?Thoughts?

[akishore 0]

pre-flop - fold. AAxx is marginally playable in PLO8, specifically in late position or with a cheap flop in a passive game (i.e. no raise). AA5x isn't much stronger, but at least you have a shot at a low. still, fold since someone raised behind you. the fact that you have a suited ace makes it a little stronger still, but still not strong enough to cold call a raised bet. fold pre-flop.flop - a pot-sized bet? fold. if you don't believe me, read the ss2 section on o8. he talks about how sets are actually pretty marginal holdings in this game. you have a VERY marginal set here since you could already be up against a made wheel. you have a draw to the nut flush, a gutshot to the wheel, and a draw to top boat, and that looks glamorous, but realize that your only shot at scooping the pot is hitting BOTH the gutshot wheel draw AND the flush/boat draw. that will happen very rarely.you should know that in this game, you either aim for the whole pot or you fold. you will very rarely win 3/4 or the whole pot here, so since you're only going for one end which isn't even very strong (your best draw is the flush draw, and since that only gets half the pot, you need around 9:1 to see the turn, and that is definitely not happening with a pot-sized bet), this is a fold situation. it sucks, but this is a definite fold.turn - yikes!!!in all honesty, i didn't even read the post past the flop until after i wrote the flop part of my reply. now that i see the results, i don't mean to be a jerk, but i was completely right. you were up against a made wheel. your equity wasn't that great. even if you don't fold pre-flop, you have to recognize these fake good-looking flop situations and fold.aseem

[strategy 4]

pre-flop - fold. AAxx is marginally playable in PLO8, specifically in late position or with a cheap flop in a passive game (i.e. no raise). AA5x isn't much stronger, but at least you have a shot at a low. still, fold since someone raised behind you. the fact that you have a suited ace makes it a little stronger still, but still not strong enough to cold call a raised bet. fold pre-flop.flop - a pot-sized bet? fold. if you don't believe me, read the ss2 section on o8. he talks about how sets are actually pretty marginal holdings in this game. you have a VERY marginal set here since you could already be up against a made wheel. you have a draw to the nut flush, a gutshot to the wheel, and a draw to top boat, and that looks glamorous, but realize that your only shot at scooping the pot is hitting BOTH the gutshot wheel draw AND the flush/boat draw. that will happen very rarely.you should know that in this game, you either aim for the whole pot or you fold. you will very rarely win 3/4 or the whole pot here, so since you're only going for one end which isn't even very strong (your best draw is the flush draw, and since that only gets half the pot, you need around 9:1 to see the turn, and that is definitely not happening with a pot-sized bet), this is a fold situation. it sucks, but this is a definite fold.turn - yikes!!!in all honesty, i didn't even read the post past the flop until after i wrote the flop part of my reply. now that i see the results, i don't mean to be a jerk, but i was completely right. you were up against a made wheel. your equity wasn't that great. even if you don't fold pre-flop, you have to recognize these fake good-looking flop situations and fold.aseem

I'm far from an expert, as I've said before. I just didn't want to let go :)I knew the "aim for the whole pot" rule, I just ignored it for some reason. I played AAxx in this case because I had a strong high draw with a marginal low to fall back on if I catch a perfect flop.I'm still too green at this game to make a fold when I have a shot at part of the pot. A bad thing.

[akishore 0]

believe it or not, the best hands in PLO8 contain no pairs.at least that's what i've read in a few places. i'm far from a good PLO8 player--limit O8 is by far my stronger game (though i'm still working on that as well).for good PLO8 advice, refer to smash.but as a generalization, big pairs actually aren't that strong high hands, since sets actually aren't strong holdings.russ georgiev has some very strong PLO8 articles, check them out at www.pokermafia.com.aseem

[strategy 4]

As a side note, even though I'm down a little money ($5 give or take), I am very happy with how things have gone. I like making "yikes!" mistakes when it costs me very little. I'm taking this seriously (meaning, I actually care when I play), something I haven't done with many forms of Internet poker in a long, long time.As stupid as I look for posting these, I prefer to make mistakes for $5 and get laughed at vs for $5000...

[strategy 4]

believe it or not, the best hands in PLO8 contain no pairs.at least that's what i've read in a few places. i'm far from a good PLO8 player--limit O8 is by far my stronger game (though i'm still working on that as well).for good PLO8 advice, refer to smash.but as a generalization, big pairs actually aren't that strong high hands, since sets actually aren't strong holdings.russ georgiev has some very strong PLO8 articles, check them out at www.pokermafia.com.aseem

I'll definitely read russ's stuff. I think I heard this from Cappaletti (cigar guy from Cardplayer) that the nuts in O/8 is AA23 double suited. I could be wrong on the author, but it made a lot of sense to me regardless.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I'll definitely read russ's stuff. I think I heard this from Cappaletti (cigar guy from Cardplayer) that the nuts in O/8 is AA23 double suited. I could be wrong on the author, but it made a lot of sense to me regardless.

AA23 double-suited is considered by many to be the strongest O/8 starting hand - although hands like A234, A235, A236 double-suited are also very powerful.Take akishore's advice over mine, I guarantee he knows much more about O/8 than I do, I have played it very little, and only at the microlimits (like 20/40 cent PL).That said, I believe I would've called with this hand preflop. You have the two aces, with one suited ace and an emergency low. It's far from a great hand, but I would play it (at the microlimits, not necessarily at more expensive games). Then again, there's nothing wrong with folding it - very few flops are going to hit that really look good for this hand. I would call with it and be ready to fold to heavy postflop betting unless I caught a great flop (all spades, or A77, for example). Did you have any kind of read on the preflop raiser? His raise (in early position, no less!) with 5227 is ridiculous IMO. If he was doing this consistently, I might reraise preflop to try to isolate him (although this might not work at the microlimits). (Unless you expect him to be aggressive with anything he flops, then you might fold preflop because you won't know where you stand postflop. ) Here, he caught a miraculous flop for his hand. Without any read, I would take his preflop raise and pot-bet on the flop to be A235, A255, or something of that sort.On the flop, facing the pot-sized bet, you should fold the set of aces; with so many people in the pot, someone very likely has the wheel, and the bettor rates to be strong betting into this large field. If you were drawing at the entire pot, you would be getting odds to call with your flush, full house, and wheel outs, but you're only drawing for half (the only card likely to win you more than half is the 2s). On the other hand, if no one bets at the flop, then you can expect that your set is good for high, and you can proceed to act on the turn if the turn card looks safe.

[strategy 4]

I'll definitely read russ's stuff. I think I heard this from Cappaletti (cigar guy from Cardplayer) that the nuts in O/8 is AA23 double suited. I could be wrong on the author, but it made a lot of sense to me regardless.

AA23 double-suited is considered by many to be the strongest O/8 starting hand - although hands like A234, A235, A236 double-suited are also very powerful.Take akishore's advice over mine, I guarantee he knows much more about O/8 than I do, I have played it very little, and only at the microlimits (like 20/40 cent PL).That said, I believe I would've called with this hand preflop. You have the two aces, with one suited ace and an emergency low. It's far from a great hand, but I would play it (at the microlimits, not necessarily at more expensive games). Then again, there's nothing wrong with folding it - very few flops are going to hit that really look good for this hand. I would call with it and be ready to fold to heavy postflop betting unless I caught a great flop (all spades, or A77, for example). Did you have any kind of read on the preflop raiser? His raise (in early position, no less!) with 5227 is ridiculous IMO. If he was doing this consistently, I might reraise preflop to try to isolate him (although this might not work at the microlimits). (Unless you expect him to be aggressive with anything he flops, then you might fold preflop because you won't know where you stand postflop. ) Here, he caught a miraculous flop for his hand. Without any read, I would take his preflop raise and pot-bet on the flop to be A235, A255, or something of that sort.On the flop, facing the pot-sized bet, you should fold the set of aces; with so many people in the pot, someone very likely has the wheel, and the bettor rates to be strong betting into this large field. If you were drawing at the entire pot, you would be getting odds to call with your flush, full house, and wheel outs, but you're only drawing for half (the only card likely to win you more than half is the 2s). On the other hand, if no one bets at the flop, then you can expect that your set is good for high, and you can proceed to act on the turn if the turn card looks safe.

Strangely enough, I'd talked with this guy at great length and played with him heads up for about an hour the night before, as well as an hour long session today. I had some respect for his play, which is exactly why I didn't put him on a wheel. Turns out he's a moron. He proceeded to accumulate $17 on a $5 max buyin table...I need all the advice I can get.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

Strangely enough, I'd talked with this guy at great length and played with him heads up for about an hour the night before, as well as an hour long session today. I had some respect for his play, which is exactly why I didn't put him on a wheel. Turns out he's a moron. He proceeded to accumulate $17 on a $5 max buyin table...I need all the advice I can get.

Actually, if you respect his play, I would definitely put him on 25 for the wheel, since he bet pot on the flop into that large field. (I would've expected A235 or something instead of what he had, but he was probably just making a speculative preflop raise with a mediocre hand to vary his play or something along those lines.) If I held your hand, I probably call the preflop raise, and fold the flop, since I'd respect the flop bet. But if I was reading the guy as a maniac, I'd end up losing big on this hand I think, because I'd reraise him preflop, and then when he caught that flop I'd be in trouble and probably lose my buy-in, since I'd have such a huge piece of the flop, and I wouldn't respect his betting.

[strategy 4]

Actually, if you respect his play, I would definitely put him on 25 for the wheel, since he bet pot on the flop into that large field.  (I would've expected A235 or something instead of what he had, but he was probably just making a speculative preflop raise with a mediocre hand to vary his play or something along those lines.)  If I held your hand, I probably call the preflop raise, and fold the flop, since I'd respect the flop bet.  But if I was reading the guy as a maniac, I'd end up losing big on this hand I think, because I'd reraise him preflop, and then when he caught that flop I'd be in trouble and probably lose my buy-in, since I'd have such a huge piece of the flop, and I wouldn't respect his betting.

I don't even know how to think of my own play, let alone others. I just respected him because he didn't lose his entire stack to me when we played heads up like everyone else does at the 1c/2c level.I'm going to have to buy SS2. It's starting to become apparent that I know a lot less than I thought about this game.

[srblan 0]

Actually, if you respect his play, I would definitely put him on 25 for the wheel, since he bet pot on the flop into that large field.  (I would've expected A235 or something instead of what he had, but he was probably just making a speculative preflop raise with a mediocre hand to vary his play or something along those lines.)  If I held your hand, I probably call the preflop raise, and fold the flop, since I'd respect the flop bet.  But if I was reading the guy as a maniac, I'd end up losing big on this hand I think, because I'd reraise him preflop, and then when he caught that flop I'd be in trouble and probably lose my buy-in, since I'd have such a huge piece of the flop, and I wouldn't respect his betting.

I don't even know how to think of my own play, let alone others. I just respected him because he didn't lose his entire stack to me when we played heads up like everyone else does at the 1c/2c level.I'm going to have to buy SS2. It's starting to become apparent that I know a lot less than I thought about this game.

SS2 makes no mention of PLO8. It is good in other respects, but don't buy it looking for information on that particular game. Only a pretty bad player would pot that particular flop without a wheel. If someone calls in front of you on the flop, you might be able to find a call (note, this is VERY marginal), but if the board doesn't pair on the turn, the hand is done for you.