98 replies to this topic

[JoeyJoJo]

Trade demands are fairly common in sports. People have become accustomed to them.Maple, yes, they still own them.

[MapleLeafpoker]

CaneBrain, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 1:30 PM, said:

I have decided to respect the legacies of Bird and Magic less because Magic got to play with Kareem his whole career and Bird was bailed out by having McHale/Parrish/DJ/Ainge/Walton. Because if you win on a team full of talent, it should not ****ing count as much. You hear that Joe Montana!?!?!? You're next, pal.

good for you. psssst: what do all those guys have in common that LeBron doesnt? thats right, they all stayed where they were and figured out how to win with what they had.I also respect the hell out of guys like Dan Marino (yeah, your boy), because he stayed in Miami, and played QB better than almost anyone in his lifetime. He doesnt have a ring, but I still think he was one of the best, and I respect his game.you played sports right? Whats more important? The journey to a championship, or the destination? I read a great article that clearly showed me that the problem here is that we as fans+media have decided titles matter above else when talking legacy, and now its natural for this evolution. Personally, I have never thought that way, but whatever.

[MapleLeafpoker]

JoeyJoJo, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 1:34 PM, said:

Trade demands are fairly common in sports. People have become accustomed to them.Maple, yes, they still own them.

thanks.its sad we've come accustomed to guys just deciding they wont honour their contracts. So accustomed in fact, we even find ways to justify their reasons.

[JoeyJoJo]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 10:48 AM, said:

its sad we've come accustomed to guys just deciding they wont honour their contracts. So accustomed in fact, we even find ways to justify their reasons.

I think we expect complete loyalty from the players and none from management. A player can get traded at anytime without any notice and nobody talks about how much that would suck. Imagine being Michael Beasley. One minute you're living in Miami, the next you're being shipped off to freaking Minnesota. He has to live there over half the year and it wasn't his choice.And if Chris Paul isn't traded and he still plays hard for New Orleans, he's still honoring his contract even while wanting to be somewhere else.

[CaneBrain]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 1:41 PM, said:

good for you. psssst: what do all those guys have in common that LeBron doesnt? thats right, they all stayed where they were and figured out how to win with what they had.I also respect the hell out of guys like Dan Marino (yeah, your boy), because he stayed in Miami, and played QB better than almost anyone in his lifetime. He doesnt have a ring, but I still think he was one of the best, and I respect his game.you played sports right? Whats more important? The journey to a championship, or the destination? I read a great article that clearly showed me that the problem here is that we as fans+media have decided titles matter above else when talking legacy, and now its natural for this evolution. Personally, I have never thought that way, but whatever.

I think rings are overrated. Much more so in football where 22 guys affect the game per team instead of 7.But the bolded is just nonsense. psssssst: If Lebron had Kareem, he would already have a couple titles and this would have all been moot. You cant possibly make a legit comparison of their situations with Lebron. They were fortunate enough to be drafted by the best two franchises ever who surrounded them with gobs and gobs of talent.I should not compare my high school tennis career to these guys....but my junior year we won the New England Prep School Championship and it was mostly because our team was ludicrously stacked compared to other squads. I enjoyed the hell out of that season.

[MapleLeafpoker]

JoeyJoJo, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 1:52 PM, said:

I think we expect complete loyalty from the players and none from management. A player can get traded at anytime without any notice and nobody talks about how much that would suck. Imagine being Michael Beasley. One minute you're living in Miami, the next you're being shipped off to freaking Minnesota. He has to live there over half the year and it wasn't his choice.And if Chris Paul isn't traded and he still plays hard for New Orleans, he's still honoring his contract even while wanting to be somewhere else.

Hold on a sec. This isnt football, where a team can cut anyone they please. Can they trade him, yes.BUT.....a team doesnt have the right to turn to Chris Paul tommorow, and say, ummm, we decided we arent going to pay you anymore because we dont think you can help us win or sell tickets. We just got whoeevr from free agency, and dont need you as our PG anymore. So, theres the door, find another job in the NBA.On the other hand, Chris Paul decides he doesnt want to play, and just sits on the side until the team trades him, as he essentially handcuffs them until they move him where he wants.I do expect teams to show loyalty, and I would take them to task on it. Long ago, it was ownership with all the power. But you gotta admit, the pendelum has swung really far to the other side.And at some point, dont we realize that its the players who are the employees?

[MapleLeafpoker]

CaneBrain, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 1:57 PM, said:

I think rings are overrated. Much more so in football where 22 guys affect the game per team instead of 7.But the bolded is just nonsense. psssssst: If Lebron had Kareem, he would already have a couple titles and this would have all been moot. You cant possibly make a legit comparison of their situations with Lebron. They were fortunate enough to be drafted by the best two franchises ever who surrounded them with gobs and gobs of talent.I should not compare my high school tennis career to these guys....but my junior year we won the New England Prep School Championship and it was mostly because our team was ludicrously stacked compared to other squads. I enjoyed the hell out of that season.

If thats how you feel about sports, we disagree. Thats cool.Winning is great, but there's a fine line between being competitive and putting together an all-star team to beat everyone else. Your team being better is fine, but if you suddenly took the best out of everyone in New England and made that one team, and you won, where would the pleasure come from? If I cant compare LeBron to the players you brought up, who should I compare him to? I used Magic cause you brought him up, same with Bird.Is there someone that you see as the "victim" of what LeBron could have been, someone who was so good but couldnt win a title because of his team?

[SuitedAces21]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

I think they both need to grow up.

I don't know what you do. But if someone let you and two of your best friends do your job in Miami, and you were 25, I have a feeling you'd do it. Dont hold these athletes to a standard you wouldnt hold yourself. Lebron should do whatever Lebron wants. Its his talent and his life.If I was talented, I wouldnt give a fuck about fans who dont give a shit for me. We use our athletes, and throw them away when they cant perform anymore. Lebron shouldnt have a single thought about it.

[JoeyJoJo]

Are Lebron/Wade/Bosh real life friends or just basketball friends?

[CaneBrain]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 2:14 PM, said:

If thats how you feel about sports, we disagree. Thats cool.Winning is great, but there's a fine line between being competitive and putting together an all-star team to beat everyone else. Your team being better is fine, but if you suddenly took the best out of everyone in New England and made that one team, and you won, where would the pleasure come from? If I cant compare LeBron to the players you brought up, who should I compare him to? I used Magic cause you brought him up, same with Bird.Is there someone that you see as the "victim" of what LeBron could have been, someone who was so good but couldnt win a title because of his team?

see below

[CaneBrain]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 2:14 PM, said:

If thats how you feel about sports, we disagree. Thats cool.Winning is great, but there's a fine line between being competitive and putting together an all-star team to beat everyone else. Your team being better is fine, but if you suddenly took the best out of everyone in New England and made that one team, and you won, where would the pleasure come from? If I cant compare LeBron to the players you brought up, who should I compare him to? I used Magic cause you brought him up, same with Bird.Is there someone that you see as the "victim" of what LeBron could have been, someone who was so good but couldnt win a title because of his team?

That's my point. A lot of our greatest stars in the NBA who we revere were drafted into stacked teams. Because free agency was involved, it is so different? Is this any different than Jerry West rooking Memphis for Pau Gasol? I think the dirty secret of the NBA is besides the 90s Bulls, all the great dynasties were stacked beyond belief.Besides, many people still think Miami is not a favorite against LA. How stacked can they be?I do agree that like the Miami Hurricanes in the 1980s....Miami winning titles might be more of a relief than a huge celebratory orgasm. I can deal.If you want to compare Lebron to someone, pick an NBA player who had great team success despite never playing with another Hall of Famer. Good luck finding one. Hakeem and Tim Duncan are the best I can do. And their supporting casts were significantly better than Cleveland circa 06-09.A good comparison to me is Jerry West. He got deep in the playoffs a lot but never won a title until he hooked up with a veteran Wilt.

JoeyJoJo, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 2:46 PM, said:

Are Lebron/Wade/Bosh real life friends or just basketball friends?

Wade and Lebron are real, good friends. Wade stayed at his house a few times. Sleepover!!

[MapleLeafpoker]

SuitedAces21, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 2:41 PM, said:

I don't know what you do. But if someone let you and two of your best friends do your job in Miami, and you were 25, I have a feeling you'd do it. Dont hold these athletes to a standard you wouldnt hold yourself. Lebron should do whatever Lebron wants. Its his talent and his life.If I was talented, I wouldnt give a fuck about fans who dont give a shit for me. We use our athletes, and throw them away when they cant perform anymore. Lebron shouldnt have a single thought about it.

Actually, no I wouldnt. I have family and friends here where I live, and I'd stay here. But thats totally irrelevant, since each person is different. But yeah, if someone offered me 10million a year, I'd move just about anywhere in the world, and my best friends could **** off for all I care. I never said he shouldnt go to Miami. Your quoting me incorrectly. The "growing up" was in reference to how he handled his departure, and how Chris Paul wants to get out of his signed contract. If again you want to judge my comments based on what I would do, I have always lived up to the contracts I have signed in my professional life, whether I was happy with them or not. Thats the level Im holding them to, living up to their contracts, and showing some loyalty even when you have to leave for greener pastures. If an employee of mine for 7years decided to leave without telling me first, I'd be a little dissapointed in his actions, wouldnt you?About Lebron. He can play wherever he wants, I dont care. I just dont have the same respect for him that I did before this. He doesnt need to be a martyr and die in Cleveland without rings for me to be happy......just act better when you leave and try to show the people of Cleveland some respect when you do. You say fans spit you out, but are you gonna tell me that Cavs fans treated him anything but great while he was there for 7years, even though he never won?As an athelete, I would have considered him a greater player if he figured out a way to win in Cleveland. Going to Miami, playing on Wade's team that already has Bosh...yeah, I wont think of him as great as I would have had he won a championship in Cleveland on his own. He's still one of the best in the NBA, but I no longer see him as the best in the NBA. Sorry.

[MapleLeafpoker]

CaneBrain, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 2:51 PM, said:

That's my point. A lot of our greatest stars in the NBA who we revere were drafted into stacked teams. Because free agency was involved, it is so different? Is this any different than Jerry West rooking Memphis for Pau Gasol? I think the dirty secret of the NBA is besides the 90s Bulls, all the great dynasties were stacked beyond belief.Besides, many people still think Miami is not a favorite against LA. How stacked can they be?I do agree that like the Miami Hurricanes in the 1980s....Miami winning titles might be more of a relief than a huge celebratory orgasm. I can deal.If you want to compare Lebron to someone, pick an NBA player who had great team success despite never playing with another Hall of Famer. Good luck finding one. Hakeem and Tim Duncan are the best I can do. And their supporting casts were significantly better than Cleveland circa 06-09.A good comparison to me is Jerry West. He got deep in the playoffs a lot but never won a title until he hooked up with a veteran Wilt.

Its an interesting point. Duncan was the closest I got, forgot about Hakeem (his Raptors tenure forces me to forget he ever existed) and I guess even that cant be a sole star. But I do think its pretty close with Duncan. Sounds like you know more about the NBA than I, so I was asking you to find an example I couldnt of a player that NEVER won it all. Closest I came up with was Malone-Stockton. I know Malone had chances to leave when got older, but didnt for whatever reason. Barkley tried, but pretty sure he never got one too.Listen, if your good as a fan, more power to you. Being in Miami these last couple of weeks, you can tell everyone is beyond hyped about this. If I was already a fan, I guess Id be exstatic too coming from last few years and the possibities of waking up July 8th without Wade. But I cant help thinking like how you put it....might be more relief that they got the expectant win. If I was a Heat fan, Id almost hope they would kinda dissapoint in the regular season to give me some worry.Ive always been the type to cheer on the underdogs, and jump on the bandwagon when everyone is getting off. My favourite ball teams were the Bucks and Warriors in the 80's and 90's. My football team was the Buccaneers, starting when they wore ORANGE, and won like once a year. I love starting at the ground level and seeing a winner built through more conventional ways of drafts and good trades. Maybe they never won a title, but the Warriors of the Mullin-Hardaway-Richmond years were my favourite, I loved that team. Just how I think about sports, and what I appreciate as a fan.

[Poppy_Hillis]

What are these players supposed to do if their organizations aren't doing anything to help them win? Are they expected to sit and waste their careers in bad situations? That's loyalty? Seems cowardly to me.

[CaneBrain]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 3:08 PM, said:

Its an interesting point. Duncan was the closest I got, forgot about Hakeem (his Raptors tenure forces me to forget he ever existed) and I guess even that cant be a sole star. But I do think its pretty close with Duncan. Sounds like you know more about the NBA than I, so I was asking you to find an example I couldnt of a player that NEVER won it all. Closest I came up with was Malone-Stockton. I know Malone had chances to leave when got older, but didnt for whatever reason. Barkley tried, but pretty sure he never got one too.

I am a pretty big NBA fan. Malone and Stockton had each other and just had the misfortune of running into MJ. Hakeem got his when MJ was out of the NBA. Duncan had TP and Manu who are both superior to anything lebron has had to date. Barkely criticizing Lebron is rich considering he engineered a trade away from floundering Philly to Phoenix (and got close but blocked by MJ). He also did the three amigos thing in Houston but they were all too old.It is almost impossible to win on your own without another HOFer especially now that the NBA is really deep due to the globalization of the game.I would have had zero problems with Lebron staying in Cleveland but it would have made his chances of ever winning a title really bad. And he would have ended up like Dan Marino....universally respected, a hero to his hometown fans, and constantly and unfairly diminished for not being able to do the nearly impossible.

[MapleLeafpoker]

CaneBrain, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 3:19 PM, said:

I am a pretty big NBA fan. Malone and Stockton had each other and just had the misfortune of running into MJ. Hakeem got his when MJ was out of the NBA. Duncan had TP and Manu who are both superior to anything lebron has had to date. Barkely criticizing Lebron is rich considering he engineered a trade away from floundering Philly to Phoenix (and got close but blocked by MJ). He also did the three amigos thing in Houston but they were all too old.It is almost impossible to win on your own without another HOFer especially now that the NBA is really deep due to the globalization of the game.I would have had zero problems with Lebron staying in Cleveland but it would have made his chances of ever winning a title really bad. And he would have ended up like Dan Marino....universally respected, a hero to his hometown fans, and constantly and unfairly diminished for not being able to do the nearly impossible.

your second part...is Gasol a HOF'er? Not to me. Am I wrong? your third part...very possible. But its really hard for me to think thats an absolute. He's only 25. Was there no chance that someone else was gonna pull a Lebron and think "I better go play there, cause I want a ring?" I mean, no chance at all that Paul/Melo/anyone else who fits would try it in Cleveland? I just dont think its as much a lock as everyone else does that Lebron couldnt have attracted some talent to Clev.question: Is there any doubt in your mind that this is Wade's team, and LeBron is his sidekick, as opposed to the opposite? Does LeBron ever "lead" a team to a championship the way MJ or Bird did? I dont think there can be any debating that, even if they had support, it was clearly MJ's team and Larry's team and especially Kobe's team?

[JoeyJoJo]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

I mean, no chance at all that Paul/Melo/anyone else who fits would try it in Cleveland? I just dont think its as much a lock as everyone else does that Lebron couldnt have attracted some talent to Clev.

Only by trade. No free agent is going to pick Cleveland.

[CaneBrain]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 3:26 PM, said:

your second part...is Gasol a HOF'er? Not to me. Am I wrong? your third part...very possible. But its really hard for me to think thats an absolute. He's only 25. Was there no chance that someone else was gonna pull a Lebron and think "I better go play there, cause I want a ring?" I mean, no chance at all that Paul/Melo/anyone else who fits would try it in Cleveland? I just dont think its as much a lock as everyone else does that Lebron couldnt have attracted some talent to Clev.question: Is there any doubt in your mind that this is Wade's team, and LeBron is his sidekick, as opposed to the opposite? Does LeBron ever "lead" a team to a championship the way MJ or Bird did? I dont think there can be any debating that, even if they had support, it was clearly MJ's team and Larry's team and especially Kobe's team?

I think, like the Showtime Lakers, that it will be Wade's team (like it was Magic's team) but people will understand that they dont win shit without Lebron (Kareem). And people remember both (Magic and Kareem (and Big Game James)) as big winners.I think Gasol could be a HOFer.....but then again they also have Odom and Bynum and Artest. It's a pretty loaded team. It is possible none of the other guys will make the HOF but all 4 are > anyone in Cleveland. I should be careful throwing around absolutes.

JoeyJoJo, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 3:32 PM, said:

Only by trade. No free agent is going to pick Cleveland.

This. I have to agree with what SA21 said.....any random 25 year old picks Miami over Cleveland given the choice. Party cities have a huge advantage in the NBA.

[MapleLeafpoker]

JoeyJoJo, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 3:32 PM, said:

Only by trade. No free agent is going to pick Cleveland.

Honestly, you really believe that? So winning and playing with the best player in the NBA is not more important than living in a "party" city like South Beach.So the friendship and need for rings only worked out cause Wade got drafted by South Beach?edit: How come no one signs with the Clippers? (looking fwd to the responses on this one! )

[CaneBrain]

MapleLeafpoker, on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010, 3:40 PM, said:

Honestly, you really believe that? So winning and playing with the best player in the NBA is not more important than living in a "party" city like South Beach.So the friendship and need for rings only worked out cause Wade got drafted by South Beach?

Look at the history. The only non party cities that draw Free Agents well are the traditional powers (Boston and Chicago). Orlando, LA, NY (not lately), Miami and Texas always do well. This is not to say it COULDNT happen just that it is far less likely.Also, Miami won the offseason because Riley is a master and had the foresight to clear cap space for 2010 like it was his job (which it was I suppose). South Beach and no state income tax surely helped.Clippers have actually done ok in free agency. Most people avoid them because the owner is a cheapskate and everyone who goes there blows out a knee (probably coincidence but it is ****ing spooky at this point ask Blake Griffin).