7 replies to this topic

[shpaget]

4/8 liveNot a tremendous amount of preflop raising..some players will raise pf with standard raising hands...others are a little loosey goosey with their raises, and others won't even raise AA.Lots of pf calling, some looser than others, but pf raises don't deter a lot of players...if they were gonna call $4, they'll call $8, no matter the cards, position or number of players.Lots of calling the flop if they catch any piece...and a few are likely to call to the river even with bottom pair. Others are likely to have almost ATC, so some funky two pair hands end up showing down. Most rivers see 3 or 4 players, and quite often only two showdown, with the busted flush draws folding.UTG raises...he could have 88, he could have KQs. Four people call, I call the button with 8s9s, the blinds call.Flop is Kh 9d 2s. (16 SB)UTG bets, every calls, SB raises to $6 allin, everyone calls, including me.Turn is Ts. (14 BB)UTG checks this time..the guy two to his left bets??, everyone calls. With three players left to act after me, including original pf/flop raiser, I think calling is better than raising the weak draw - thoughts? River is 9c. (21 BB) - 7 BB in sideUTG bets, everyone calls to me. I make the crying call with 27 BB in pot and likely one more coming from the BB. I'm never folding this, no matter how sure I am I'm beat. But I'm wondering - Can I raise this river...do I get called by enough Kx or Tx or AA type hands to make up for the straights, full houses or higher 9's?

[InAbsentia]

Sounds exactly like the game I play in at Casino Arizona lol... Playing with people like that makes me play terrible, but I'm still a decent winner in the long run..Anyways I would have done pretty much everything the same way you did.. Call on the river seems good.. So did you win the pot?

[antistuff]

i think i go for a raise on the river, but to be honest i would have to have been there to know for sure.

[TheCinciKid]

shpaget, on Tuesday, November 18th, 2008, 5:25 PM, said:

4/8 liveI'm never folding this, no matter how sure I am I'm beat. But I'm wondering - Can I raise this river...do I get called by enough Kx or Tx or AA type hands to make up for the straights, full houses or higher 9's?

Absolutely not, IMO. For the most part, I like the way you played this hand. When I think about it, raising the turn might be good because it can clean up some of your outs. But, you're most likely behind and and it really depends on the game texture, if no one is folding anyway, then just call. If people might fold a better flush draw, or an eight with a better kicker or something because it's going to cost them two bets, then definitely go ahead and raise to clean up your outs. Otherwise, just call along. On the river, I think you have to just call. Based on the game texture you described, I don't think you ever get a better hand to fold and I think you're beat often enough that raising is bad. Take it all with a grain of salt, I'm really rusty when it comes to donkified live games. Wish I could play in the one you describe here though, it sounds exceptionally juicy.

[NonZeroPossibility]

TheCinciKid, on Tuesday, November 18th, 2008, 9:30 PM, said:

if no one is folding anyway, then just call.

fyp

[shpaget]

TheCinciKid, on Tuesday, November 18th, 2008, 10:30 PM, said:

When I think about it, raising the turn might be good because it can clean up some of your outs. But, you're most likely behind and and it really depends on the game texture, if no one is folding anyway, then just call. If people might fold a better flush draw, or an eight with a better kicker or something because it's going to cost them two bets, then definitely go ahead and raise to clean up your outs. Otherwise, just call along.

My thoughts exactly. Absolutely no one with a better hand or better draw is folding...not a better 9, not a better flush draw, and not K8 or T8.I have 14 "outs", but I'm not sure if I win even half the time I hit one of them...and I probably like hitting the 8 or 9 more than I like hitting a flush. On the turn, I either put in 1 BB to win 20, or 2 BB to win 26. I don't think the extra bet is justified against my chances of winning outright.

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On the river, I think you have to just call. Based on the game texture you described, I don't think you ever get a better hand to fold and I think you're beat often enough that raising is bad.

If I raise, and win, I'm getting 5 or 7 extra big bets (the BB might fold, no one else should).If I raise, and lose, some unknown amount of time I will lose 1 BB, and some other unknown amount of time I will lose 2 BB (I see UTG as the only potential reraiser)....and some minute number of times when UTG reraises I still win. I figure I have to have the best hand 20% of the time to break even with a raise...but maybe even that's optimistic.

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Wish I could play in the one you describe here though, it sounds exceptionally juicy.

Words can't describe it. This is a game typically of regulars, and it's juicier than a 4/8 game of drunk tourists in Vegas. These guys look at LHE the same way they look at Blackjack. Agaisnt them, I'm happy to be "the house".My last 5 sessions went as follows:5 BB/hr8 BB/hr6 BB/hr 4 BB/hr35 BB/hr (yes, short session, but only possible in donkfest..guys reraising 5 high flush against two players on paired board...or reraising idiot end of straight with four clubs on board)In fact, I've only had one losing session this year.And the fact is, I KNOW I'm missing bets, and spewing others...which is why I read these boards.I'm gonna go in one night and just watch the 15/30 kill game to see how it behaves...I suppose if it's even half as juicy I need to give it a go...the bankroll's there, it's just hard to walk away from a game that behaves not unlike a free access bank machine.

[RISEorFall]

i raise this river. nobody is acting like they have something big except UTG and if his utg range is wide that doesnt mean much. you more than make up for losing a bet or two by all the worse hands you get calling you.

[TheCinciKid]

shpaget, on Wednesday, November 19th, 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

My thoughts exactly. Absolutely no one with a better hand or better draw is folding...not a better 9, not a better flush draw, and not K8 or T8.I have 14 "outs", but I'm not sure if I win even half the time I hit one of them...and I probably like hitting the 8 or 9 more than I like hitting a flush. On the turn, I either put in 1 BB to win 20, or 2 BB to win 26. I don't think the extra bet is justified against my chances of winning outright.If I raise, and win, I'm getting 5 or 7 extra big bets (the BB might fold, no one else should).If I raise, and lose, some unknown amount of time I will lose 1 BB, and some other unknown amount of time I will lose 2 BB (I see UTG as the only potential reraiser)....and some minute number of times when UTG reraises I still win. I figure I have to have the best hand 20% of the time to break even with a raise...but maybe even that's optimistic.Words can't describe it. This is a game typically of regulars, and it's juicier than a 4/8 game of drunk tourists in Vegas. These guys look at LHE the same way they look at Blackjack. Agaisnt them, I'm happy to be "the house".My last 5 sessions went as follows:5 BB/hr8 BB/hr6 BB/hr 4 BB/hr35 BB/hr (yes, short session, but only possible in donkfest..guys reraising 5 high flush against two players on paired board...or reraising idiot end of straight with four clubs on board)In fact, I've only had one losing session this year.And the fact is, I KNOW I'm missing bets, and spewing others...which is why I read these boards.I'm gonna go in one night and just watch the 15/30 kill game to see how it behaves...I suppose if it's even half as juicy I need to give it a go...the bankroll's there, it's just hard to walk away from a game that behaves not unlike a free access bank machine.

Honestly, i'm not sure I would recommend the 15/30 game unless this game starts to really dry up. I have some experience with moving up in live games and I'm not sure it's such a good idea if you're crushing the level you're at. I guess it kinda depends on what your goals are, but I'm just not sure it's worth it. If your main goal is just to make money, I think you take one shot at the 15/30, play for a few hours and objectively evaluate the game. If you can make as much playing that game as at 4/8 (i.e. 1 BB/hr. at 15/30 is better than 3 BB/hr at 4/8), then you definitely move up. Otherwise, stay at your atm machine and continue to make withdrawals from it.A couple of years back I was playing a lot at a riverboat casino in Cincinnati. I could pretty much only play on Friday nights and I was doing quite well at a pretty decent 6/12 limit game. It wasn't nearly as juicy as your 4/8, but it was good enough and I was making money. I built my roll up to a point where I wanted to take a shot at the 10/20 game they had there. It turned out, there were at least 3 players at the 10/20 who were as good or better than me and I lost every session I played there. But, I had a hard time getting myself to stop trying. Once you get a taste of the higher level, you don't really want to go back. If it were me, I'd probably stick with the 4/8 atm machine. But, if you've got enough cash and dreams of going pro or something, definitely take a shot at the 15/30 and see where you're at. Just make sure you're ready to move back down and withdraw from the atm if the 15/30 is too dry.