62 replies to this topic

[BaseJester]

CobaltBlue, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 11:25 AM, said:

Because we'd be absolutely thrilled if the flop came T8x. This just happened to be one of the textures where I wasn't quite as thrilled to flop a set.

This seems to me like an overly specific set of conditions. Even T8x isn't perfect for x=7. So we want a flop containing an 8, but no cards above a ten, and not all of one suit, and not making a plausible straight.

Quote

I mean, I might even be happier if it was AK8 (since he'd almost always stack off with AK).

I don't think AK on a AK8 flop looks that much better than AK on a KJd8d flop. If the villain stacks off his 250bb with AK, does he expect to trap A8 or K8 in a 3-bet pot?

[KingJames]

BaseJester, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 7:44 PM, said:

I'm not sure if you're serious here or not, but this seems like a big risk. You'd have to bet big enough to dissuade the villain from drawing to a full house, but more often than not his hand contains the Kd, and the villain will be willing to put his money in even if he's convinced that he is behind.

1000000000000000% half joking

[mtdesmoines]

How often do you guys get the stone cold nuts?I'm not joking.

[KingJames]

mtdesmoines, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 9:13 PM, said:

How often do you guys get the stone cold nuts?I'm not joking.

Not that often. But we don't need the nuts to stack off, we just need to be making a +ev play vs opponents range. 3b pre = tighter range. 250bb = tighter range. We have this discussion every few months, and I will never join the "zomg set, stack off no matter what" camp. There have been HHs posted where hero correctly folds bottom set even for 100bbs.Rebuttal:How often do you not get shown the nuts when you put in 250bbs vs a 400nl reg?

[BaseJester]

KingJames, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 11:23 PM, said:

and I will never join the "zomg set, stack off no matter what" camp.

This is a strawman. I don't think there's anybody in this camp, the same way there's nobody in the "zomg, I don't have the nuts, fold" camp.

[Ninja Ace]

I guess where I'm coming from is, we play this hand pre mostly to flop sets... now we flopped a set and are unsure what to do, so why did we play pre?I don't think there's any disagreement about leading this flop making the hand 10 billion times easier and more profitable to play... but we're in this spot now so... we kind of have to try to get stacks in.If we can't confidently check-raise stacks in, and our plan on the flop starts with a check, then that means we have a huge leak in our game preflop. So while I don't necessarily have a huge problem with thinking we don't get enough action to justify the check-raise, I do have a huge problem playing the hand the way we have thus far if we do not check-raise.

[Stupidhead]

mtdesmoines, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 8:13 PM, said:

How often do you guys get the stone cold nuts?I'm not joking.

You rly come off as trying to sound like an expert for someone who isn't that great at poker.So since no one is that donking isn't the best option, those that want to c/r get it in, are you donk/3bet/getting it in if raised? Cuz i think that's equally if not more suicidal than a c/r.

[Ninja Ace]

Stupidhead, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 9:27 PM, said:

So since no one is that donking isn't the best option, those that want to c/r get it in, are you donk/3bet/getting it in if raised? Cuz i think that's equally if not more suicidal than a c/r.

I'm not going to donk/fold, and anyone who says so, i think you should quit pokerAnd, honestly, after it goes we donk, if we get raised... it barely matters what we do because stacks will be getting in unless the other person has air... so at that point you could flat or shove and i really don't see it making a difference.

[Stupidhead]

Ninja Ace, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 10:40 PM, said:

I'm not going to donk/fold, and anyone who says so, i think you should quit pokerAnd, honestly, after it goes we donk, if we get raised... it barely matters what we do because stacks will be getting in unless the other person has air... so at that point you could flat or shove and i really don't see it making a difference.

Def never donk/folding, but again, I just don't think any decent reg is ever going to 3bet AK/AA. It makes zero sense to do so as our range is going to sets/combo draws almost always. And if we do have pure air, 3betting shuts us out. Plus there's still a fish to act behind us. So he's never going to bluff us in this spot. There are guys in the micros and even midstakes where I wouldn't have a problem just getting stacks in. But as you move up limits, the number of those people is going to become fewer and fewer. There are some super LAG regs I've faced at 2/4 where I'd probably flat and let them barrel off, but the rest I would be trying to find a fold on some street. The majority of regs are straight forward nits who don't like getting in over 200 bigs without the nizzles. I think you're way overestimating what your average 2/4 reg will get in here.

[Ninja Ace]

Stupidhead, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 9:55 PM, said:

I think you're way overestimating what your average 2/4 reg will get in here.

I think you're missing my point... if what you say is true then:

Ninja Ace, on Monday, June 6th, 2011, 8:35 PM, said:

If they seriously only ever get it in with JJ or KK here thena) you make money in this spot anywayb) LOLIHAS2CARDZALLING

Iono... maybe I'm just a shove monkey

[Stupidhead]

Ninja Ace, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 11:02 PM, said:

I think you're missing my point... if what you say is true then:

He's never raise/folding for value. So if we donk and get raised, there's almost nothing we can expect to be folding. The problem with trying to bluff this spot is that if villain bets, I never expect him to be weak. He's cbetting into 2 players, one of which is a megafish. And his range of value hands becomes more narrow since he 3bet. That another reason why I like donking. If villain doesn't have KK/JJ/AA/AK, I expect this to be checked through a lot. And those 4 hands make up a majority of his range since he hasn't been 3betting that much. If we somehow knew that his range was capped to AA and he never had KK/JJ, I would not be opposed to turning our entire range into a bluff against a bunch of players. But as it is, even if he folds those hands 100% of the time, I don't think that makes up for the times we run into KK/JJ.

[Ninja Ace]

To be perfectly honest, saying that a check-raise here can neither work for value for the 3rd nuts or as a bluff comes off as "I'm scared to put money in the pot"I find the two extremes being simultaneously untrue to be extremely unlikely

[Stupidhead]

Ninja Ace, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 11:24 PM, said:

To be perfectly honest, saying that a check-raise here can neither work for value for the 3rd nuts or as a bluff comes off as "I'm scared to put money in the pot"I find the two extremes being simultaneously untrue to be extremely unlikely

My last post was referring to if we donked. If we had air and wanted to bluff, a check/raise wouldn't be as bad. But I only like it if villain has a wide enough 3betting range and cbets way too much. If he somehow can have KQ/KT/AJ type hands, or just pure air when he cbets, then c/r becomes a lot better. But in this spot I don't expect his cbetting range to go beyond AA/KK/JJ/AK. QQ/AQ shouldn't be cbetting that often if at all. And I don't think his 3betting range goes beyond AA-JJ/AK/AQ. It's possible there's a few other random hands in his range but given the info we have, we just have to assume his range is tight. Plus, we're going to need to fire flop/turn/river for him to fold AA/AK. It probably does work, I just don't think it makes up for the times we run into KK/JJ and spew off 250 bigs. I'm not saying that a c/r for value or as a bluff isn't profitable against anyone. The situation is entirely villain dependant. But given the reads on this specific villain I just don't think we should be trying to bluff him, or try to get in bottom set 250 deep.

[Ninja Ace]

Stupidhead, on Wednesday, June 8th, 2011, 12:32 AM, said:

But given the reads on this specific villain I just don't think we should be trying to bluff him, or try to get in bottom set 250 deep.

Which makes it a fold pre then...and yes, donk/3betting as a bluff would be like, the worst thing ever here

[Stupidhead]

Ninja Ace, on Wednesday, June 8th, 2011, 7:16 AM, said:

Which makes it a fold pre then...

No, it doesn't. This whole argument of "if we called to flop a set, and won't stack off when we do, we shouldn't play it" is just stupid. Just because we're not willing to get stacks in on this board does not mean that calling pre won't be profitable long term. We don't need to stack villain for this to be profitable. If just the megafish stacks off, it's profitable. If we just get 2 streets of value from the reg, it's profitable. And this is one of the few boards where I'd be hesitant to get stacks in. Any board where we have middle set (which will be on the majority of boards) or top set I'd be a lot more inclined to stack off.

[mtdesmoines]

KingJames, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 10:23 PM, said:

Not that often. But we don't need the nuts to stack off, we just need to be making a +ev play vs opponents range. 3b pre = tighter range. 250bb = tighter range. We have this discussion every few months, and I will never join the "zomg set, stack off no matter what" camp. There have been HHs posted where hero correctly folds bottom set even for 100bbs.Rebuttal:How often do you not get shown the nuts when you put in 250bbs vs a 400nl reg?

I have to be real honest about this hand: I get shown AK in this spot ALL the time; especially when I apply serious pressure. The more chips I put in the pot in here, the more people seem to assign a big draw to me. If I had to assign a hand, AK with a 4flush draw/flush blocker would be my first guess. People love to call. People hate to fold a "made hand" like AK or AA.

[mtdesmoines]

Ninja Ace, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 11:28 PM, said:

I guess where I'm coming from is, we play this hand pre mostly to flop sets... now we flopped a set and are unsure what to do, so why did we play pre?I don't think there's any disagreement about leading this flop making the hand 10 billion times easier and more profitable to play... but we're in this spot now so... we kind of have to try to get stacks in.If we can't confidently check-raise stacks in, and our plan on the flop starts with a check, then that means we have a huge leak in our game preflop. So while I don't necessarily have a huge problem with thinking we don't get enough action to justify the check-raise, I do have a huge problem playing the hand the way we have thus far if we do not check-raise.

Yeah, you know, I'm not talking about check shoving; I want to get more chips in the pot on the flop. I don't think we just come over the top with all chips. I said raise to $250.

[mtdesmoines]

Stupidhead, on Wednesday, June 8th, 2011, 12:27 AM, said:

You rly come off as trying to sound like an expert for someone who isn't that great at poker.So since no one is that donking isn't the best option, those that want to c/r get it in, are you donk/3bet/getting it in if raised? Cuz i think that's equally if not more suicidal than a c/r.

I'm going to ignore that.

[CobaltBlue]

BaseJester, on Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 9:54 PM, said:

This seems to me like an overly specific set of conditions. Even T8x isn't perfect for x=7. So we want a flop containing an 8, but no cards above a ten, and not all of one suit, and not making a plausible straight.

I'd be quite willing to get it in on T87dd since his chance of 3-betting J9 isn't that great (and we can outdraw it). If it's all of one suit, that's perfectly fine...because he'll be more apt to stack with AA/KK with the flush draw. As for straight boards, it's going to be difficult for him to have a straight on a board where we make a set.

[KingJames]

Stupidhead, on Wednesday, June 8th, 2011, 11:05 AM, said:

No, it doesn't. This whole argument of "if we called to flop a set, and won't stack off when we do, we shouldn't play it" argument is just stupid. Just because we're not willing to get stacks in on this board does not mean that calling pre won't be profitable long term. We don't need to stack villain for this to be profitable. If just the megafish stacks off, it's profitable. If we just get 2 streets of value from the reg, it's profitable. And this is one of the few boards where I'd be hesitant to get stacks in. Any board where we have middle set (which will be on the majority of boards) or top set I'd be a lot more inclined to stack off.

0o0o0o0o0 baby +1

mtdesmoines, on Wednesday, June 8th, 2011, 11:29 AM, said:

I have to be real honest about this hand: I get shown AK in this spot ALL the time; especially when I apply serious pressure. The more chips I put in the pot in here, the more people seem to assign a big draw to me. If I had to assign a hand, AK with a 4flush draw/flush blocker would be my first guess. People love to call. People hate to fold a "made hand" like AK or AA.

I can respect a lot of what you are saying. I think the difference between the live games (I for some reason have this idea youre primarily a live player) and the online midstakes is where the majority of our differing opinions is coming from.