24 replies to this topic

[Chet Chetterson]

I played this like a nit I believe, am I correct on this assumption? If so, where should I have been more agressive.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, 1.2 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero's M: 32.50Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7 , 7 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 callsFlop: (14.5 SB) 2 , 4 , 2 (7 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, 2 folds, Button raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero callsTurn: (10.25 BB) A (3 players)MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, MP1 calls, Hero folds

[rrumsey]

call turn, fold unimproved river if he fires a third barrel, haven't played limit tourny's but i have been playing a bit of limit cash games and im like never putting him on on naked A here, so we are still in check call mode imo on the turn bc it missed a decent amount of his range leaving us equity to call given what 6.5:1 odds, that is almost enough to set mine the river, plus he is still going to fire 100% of his hands like flop range on turn, see a river and re-eval is my vote. seems kind of loose, but he could have any PP, and ace some of the time, a flush draw, and maybe a st8 or a double belly buster st8 draw, a middle pair still has equity and we have a great price. I love your flop line, and check call a blank turn and river to catch all his missed hands unless you know he is a total rock, which early in a sng you know very little. you did play this hand rather nitty imo, and im a nit!

[rrumsey]

i dont like a 4 bet on the flop, because we start to spew too much at that point by the way, dont play this more aggro, play it just as passively as you were imo, raising beyond the flop open accomplishes nothing bc we can only get value out of a small % of his range at that point

[Mills]

this is a 7 way pot in a 1.20 tournament... are we sure we even C-bet this? legit question, i dont play a ton of limit holdem anymore.. but when i did i played these small kinda tournies, and it always seemed like no one folded anything pf in the early rounds.... isn't a weird duece pretty likely here?

[rrumsey]

a ton of things are/ could be floating around, i take the good odds thou

[Lucoo_]

rrumsey, on Wednesday, January 6th, 2010, 10:33 PM, said:

call turn, fold unimproved river if he fires a third barrel, haven't played limit tourny's but i have been playing a bit of limit cash games and im like never putting him on on naked A here, so we are still in check call mode imo on the turn bc it missed a decent amount of his range leaving us equity to call given what 6.5:1 odds, that is almost enough to set mine the river, plus he is still going to fire 100% of his hands like flop range on turn, see a river and re-eval is my vote. seems kind of loose, but he could have any PP, and ace some of the time, a flush draw, and maybe a st8 or a double belly buster st8 draw, a middle pair still has equity and we have a great price. I love your flop line, and check call a blank turn and river to catch all his missed hands unless you know he is a total rock, which early in a sng you know very little. you did play this hand rather nitty imo, and im a nit!

Chances on hitting a set on river is 3 out of 44 or ~ 14.5:1.

[rrumsey]

im not saying we need to, to ditch a hand with just one over on board and have it not be too likely that he has a PP 8's+ we peel turn

[Shark527]

rrumsey, on Wednesday, January 6th, 2010, 10:33 PM, said:

call turn, fold unimproved river if he fires a third barrel, haven't played limit tourny's but i have been playing a bit of limit cash games and im like never putting him on on naked A here, so we are still in check call mode imo on the turn bc it missed a decent amount of his range leaving us equity to call given what 6.5:1 odds, that is almost enough to set mine the river, plus he is still going to fire 100% of his hands like flop range on turn, see a river and re-eval is my vote. seems kind of loose, but he could have any PP, and ace some of the time, a flush draw, and maybe a st8 or a double belly buster st8 draw, a middle pair still has equity and we have a great price. I love your flop line, and check call a blank turn and river to catch all his missed hands unless you know he is a total rock, which early in a sng you know very little. you did play this hand rather nitty imo, and im a nit!

I don't think we have the odds here to call a turn. Button bets and another player calls on a turn Ace, I think we can just dump it here.

rrumsey, on Thursday, January 7th, 2010, 7:05 AM, said:

im not saying we need to, to ditch a hand with just one over on board and have it not be too likely that he has a PP 8's+ we peel turn

If we're putting him on specifically a PP higher than ours, we need to raise turn or river because, given our read, we are not winning at showdown and need to at least try and rep an Ace. Since a raise is most likely not getting 2 players out, that is a bad idea. Thus, fold turn.The only thing I would do differently is flat pre. You want to play this hand for set value only because blinds are still low, your going to be very multiway, and almost never in position even with a raise. You hit it, pump it....if you don't, dump it.

[Chet Chetterson]

Thanks for the input guys.I think that I definitely have a leak with raising these middle pocket pairs in limit, I think I do need to call these more often.So maybe I'm not as much of a nit as I thought, but part of that may be from the results. A blank comes on the river (forget the card) but MP1 wins with J3 off suit (which means Button either had a weaker 3 or maybe suited connector like 5c6c)

[Escalante]

I wouldn't mind 3 betting this on the flop. Most players wait for the turn before they start raising w/monsters. I think he has a 4 more often than a 2 here. Every1 else probably holds high cards. I don't know. I'm a cash player, not tourny. I think a case can be made for limping pre flop too and playing the hand for set value early in a donkament if you know the pot is going to be 5+ handed.

[Danege]

Escalante, on Saturday, January 9th, 2010, 5:27 AM, said:

I wouldn't mind 3 betting this on the flop. Most players wait for the turn before they start raising w/monsters. I think he has a 4 more often than a 2 here. Every1 else probably holds high cards. I don't know. I'm a cash player, not tourny. I think a case can be made for limping pre flop too and playing the hand for set value early in a donkament if you know the pot is going to be 5+ handed.

This imo.

[SwolyswoND]

This is a mandatory 3bet on the flop. Button never has a 2 here (the only hand he would cold call with PF containing a 2 would be A2, and he wouldn't raise the flop with it), so he has a PP or 4x trying to protect. After the turn I just call down. When you guys start playing limit more often, you will find that you will make TONS of money by calling down in big pots like this. You don't have to be right often, and people spew with all kinds of nonsense. Also, even if you are beat you very nearly have implied odds to fill up - but I think you are ahead usually here. BTW, this is an EZ raise pre, guys.

[Escalante]

SwolyswoND, on Saturday, January 16th, 2010, 5:17 PM, said:

BTW, this is an EZ raise pre, guys.

In a cash game, yes. In a micro donkament where the pot will likely bet 5+ handed, I disagree. I would probably raise, but calling is closer than in a cash game, and may actually be better.

[SwolyswoND]

It's still an easy raise. I don't mind taking a flop 5 handed with 77, because I know I'm not going crazy on a AQ6 flop. Plus you are much more likely to get paid if you set.

[Escalante]

SwolyswoND, on Monday, January 18th, 2010, 4:11 PM, said:

It's still an easy raise. I don't mind taking a flop 5 handed with 77, because I know I'm not going crazy on a AQ6 flop. Plus you are much more likely to get paid if you set.

Raising is +cEV, but is it +$EV? If you entered a WSOP event, would you risk your tourny on a flopped flush draw given 5-1 odds? I mean, you are getting the right odds. I know it's an extreme example, but we're talking a tourny here. You can't be serious about liking taking a flop 5 handed w/77 in a tourny.

[SwolyswoND]

In limit? Absolutely I don't mind taking the flop 5 handed with 77. You don't lose your stack if you call down one bet per street on a 24468 board. And with the blinds this low, $EV doesn't really work into the equation yet. Again, I think you're thinking too much in NL terms. In a limit tourney, it's all about how many bets you win, not how many hands. +cEV is all you care about this early.

[Escalante]

SwolyswoND, on Monday, January 18th, 2010, 10:11 PM, said:

In limit? Absolutely I don't mind taking the flop 5 handed with 77. You don't lose your stack if you call down one bet per street on a 24468 board. And with the blinds this low, $EV doesn't really work into the equation yet. Again, I think you're thinking too much in NL terms. In a limit tourney, it's all about how many bets you win, not how many hands. +cEV is all you care about this early.

Are the chips you may gain really worth the chips you may lose? I'm not thinking in NL terms. I don't know how. I'm strictly a cash LHE game player. I know you don't lose your whole stack. If you're willing to go to a flop 5 handed w/77, sounds like you're set mining. Why raise when you're set mining? You may be right, but I'm not convinced that raising is rly that much better (if at all) than calling basically knowing the pot is multi way.

[SwolyswoND]

Escalante, on Tuesday, January 19th, 2010, 10:35 PM, said:

Are the chips you may gain really worth the chips you may lose? I'm not thinking in NL terms. I don't know how. I'm strictly a cash LHE game player. I know you don't lose your whole stack. If you're willing to go to a flop 5 handed w/77, sounds like you're set mining. Why raise when you're set mining? You may be right, but I'm not convinced that raising is rly that much better (if at all) than calling basically knowing the pot is multi way.

If we had 66-, then we'd be set mining. I have no problem playing 77+ for its value as well in limit.

[Chet Chetterson]

Have not checked this thread in awhile but I do have a question? Since this hand I started to play limit cash and still have not decided where the line between set mining and raising pocket pairs are. Where do you guys set the line (beside Swol who has it a 7's)?

[SwolyswoND]

Depends if you're playing FR or 6max. (Please please please dont play FR - omg so boring and hard to show a profit) And then of course it depends on your position.For 6max, if I'm UTG, I usually open 55+, in MP 44+, and in the CO/BTN/SB any PP. I do adjust those #s downward if the players behind me are tight or bad.For FR, I'm limping 22-66 until about UTG+3 or so, then I'll open 44-55. I won't open 22-33 until the HJ or so.