brando 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 No set reads yet, been at the table for about 2 orbits. Table was fairly loose and passive for the most part. Nothing stood out in my mind so far from either opponent.No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Hero ($59.90)MP2 ($87)CO ($33.25)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A . UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: ($3) 7 , K , J (6 players)3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, Hero ? I'm sure I'll get some crap about not raising pf, but this is my default play with this hand in this position.1.) How do we proceed on the flop?2.) If people find it valuable to talk about pf then by all means address it. Link to post Share on other sites
Money022 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 It's very possible MP2 is on a draw and hopes the mini-raise will cause you to check the turn and let him see the river without having to call another bet. I personally repop it to $15. Fold to a reraise, check/fold UI on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
Scott3705 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Call. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 It's very possible MP2 is on a draw and hopes the mini-raise will cause you to check the turn and let him see the river without having to call another bet. I personally repop it to $15. Fold to a reraise, check/fold UI on the turn.So if one or both opponents call your re-raise you c/f the turn if you whiff? Link to post Share on other sites
hank213 1,823 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Actually I don't mind the call pf in EP at a new table with AKo. Makes it nice and easy to get a way from if you whiff and potentially more profitable if you hit strong. The raise from MP2 doesn't scare me as much as the cold call from CO. The min raise could simply be his(MP2) attempt to counter act the small ball tactic of firing at a pot even if you miss or finding out if his second pair is good. The cold call could be a tricky player with a set waiting for you to re-raise before he jams. Of course he could be on the draw with something like Q10 or setting up a bluff given his position, but it's disconcerting. I would probably call, and fire a 2/3 pot bet if the turn is a blank, if it's a danger card fire 1/3-1/2, you might be buying some decent info for later. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 I'm sure I'll get some crap about not raising pf, but this is my default play with this hand in this position.Care to share why? Link to post Share on other sites
caribstv 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Since we're in the position now regardless on how we got here we're prob behind but We'll have to call here... and see what the turn brings Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 Care to share why?Sure, I will try to explain why.The biggest reason I limp is to try to control the pot size. Better put, I just want to keep the pot small OOP without a made hand. Especially in loose games I limp, if people are liberally calling pf raises, I'm OOP and have just started the process in building a big pot.Limp/Re-Raise. I only use this against certain types of opponents. Not to mention alot of people see this move as AA/KK only so it adds a little bit of deception. So many people love to raise a limped pot, either to isolate or just b/c they are aggressive. Limping gives you lots of ways to play your hand.It encourages people with weaker A's to limp or raise. You don't make money off of these dominated hands if they fold pre flop, limping allows them to come in the pot. People may enter the pot with those same hands if you had raised, but this just increases the chances.It's easier to play if you miss, you just c/f without anything. This is probably more of a psychological thing. People, myself included, have problems becoming attached to a pot when they raise pf, this helps you just realize you have nothing in a small pot and can fold.The biggest thing with limping is playing the flop. You have to get more of people's money when they flop TP vs. your TPTK then they get of yours whenever they flop 2 pair/trips/etc.. vs. your TPTK. Basically, you just have to trust your post flop ability, b/c hands like A4s will be in there, where as if you had raised pf it's possible you could rule that out of villain's range.That's about all I can think of now, my reasoning may or may not be good, I don't know, but it works for me. Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 I hate AK OOP Link to post Share on other sites
CitizenSpade 0 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 I think it's safe to assume your beat. With the omnious double raise, and the call, added to the fact that you let these players see a cheap flop just adds to the trouble. You have no info (since everyone limped) and there has been a raise and call. It's a safe bet your beat. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 Here's the rest the of the hand, I think my line was the best, but it's possible I could be convinced otherwise.Hero ($59.90)MP2 ($87)CO ($33.25)Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A . UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: ($3) 7 , K , J (6 players)3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, Hero raises to $20, MP2 calls , CO folds Turn: (~$50) 7 Hero pushes ~$36, MP2 folds I think the turn pretty much plays itself so I"m leaving the results in. Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Raise preflop. <--- Not a discussion.Reraise the flop. You are probably ahead, and you should find out soon if you aren't. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 Raise preflop. <--- Not a discussion. I disagree with the bolded part, can you explain why it's a must raise? I already stated my reasons. I also read an article somewhere on 2+2 about a year ago, looked for it earlier today, but didn't find it. Anyways, it was on raising pf in small stakes nl games, it said if you NEVER raised pf you would only be making a small mistake, if any. If I find it, I'll post it, it would make for good discussion. Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Raise AK preflop for the same reason you raise any other hand. Value. It is a mistake (however small) not to do so. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 Raise AK preflop for the same reason you raise any other hand. Value. It is a mistake (however small) not to do so.If you're UTG or UTG+1 do you always raise these hands(9's, 8's, 5's, 4's, etc..)?I'm not saying not to raise AK pf, I do it all the time, in this position though, I feel it is the best way to maximize my ev.The main point of the post was the flop play. I used to play very passively post flop. I've changed it up and have been more aggressive and it has improved my game.My plan on the flop, after I raised, was to fold to a re-raise. If called, push any non scare card turn. Is that line on the flop optimal? Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 You can't equate AK to 4s and 5s.AK is totally different. You'd rather be HU with AK, 4s/5s you want multiway action. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 You can't equate AK to 4s and 5s.AK is totally different. You'd rather be HU with AK, 4s/5s you want multiway action.Not equating the hands, just his logic "raise for value". If you run those pairs through poker stove I'm sure they have +equity against 9 random hands. I just really dislike when people say "not a discussion" or "do this", but don't explain why.It's just not very helpful, we're here to learn and to discuss. And I also believe that limping maximizes my value in the hand for the reasons I stated earlier.What do you think about the line on the flop? Link to post Share on other sites
aadams_22 3 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 raise both PF and the flop Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 I almost never open limp. Yes, I raise 44, 67s and TT utg, and all to the same amount.I think your line on the flop is fine. Link to post Share on other sites
burbs42 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 The biggest reason I limp is to try to control the pot size.You have a better chance at controlling the pot size by raising. Limping lets others in, as in your hand you take a flop with 6 PLAYERS. THATS A LOT! If you raise here, I would expect UTG to call, but it is quite likely that you eliminate many of the players that limped ahead of you, as a typical raised pot goes to the flop 2 or 3 handed. Against 3 players, TPTK is much better than against 6, and MP2 might even pay you off with his weaker hand, as he has now committed more chips.I could go on, but nutshell: Raise good, call bad. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 You have a better chance at controlling the pot size by raising. Limping lets others in, as in your hand you take a flop with 6 PLAYERS. THATS A LOT! If you raise here, I would expect UTG to call, but it is quite likely that you eliminate many of the players that limped ahead of you, as a typical raised pot goes to the flop 2 or 3 handed. Against 3 players, TPTK is much better than against 6, and MP2 might even pay you off with his weaker hand, as he has now committed more chips.I could go on, but nutshell: Raise good, call bad.Good post.I agree with some of your points and maybe it's just my personal preference, but with this hand OOP, I would rather play a 6 handed unraised pot as compared to a 3 or 4 handed raised pot. It may not be the most +ev play pf, but I think it maximizes my ev on later streets.Also, opponent's pf mistakes are typically very small mistakes and don't have a ton of -ev in comparison to the mistakes they make after the flop. So I'm forgoing a small edge pf in order to get a bigger edge post flop. Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 with this hand OOP, I would rather play a 6 handed unraised pot as compared to a 3 or 4 handed raised pot.I'm struggling to think of a reason why. Could be that it's 4:20am here and I haven't slept much lately so my thinking is somewhat frazzled, or it could be that there isn't a valid reason for it. Link to post Share on other sites
aadams_22 3 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 I'm struggling to think of a reason why. Could be that it's 4:20am here and I haven't slept much lately so my thinking is somewhat frazzled, or it could be that there isn't a valid reason for it.you're not frazzledThe fact of the matter is that there isn't a good reason to not raise PF with AK. Once in a while fine...but not consistently. You have a good equity edge with big slick and the more people you let in the smaller that edge becomes. I would much rather raise here and play the hand heads up if not take the pot down immediately. Link to post Share on other sites
brando 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 I'm struggling to think of a reason why. Could be that it's 4:20am here and I haven't slept much lately so my thinking is somewhat frazzled, or it could be that there isn't a valid reason for it.The quote "Its about winning money not winning pots" comes to mind. My thinking is not what option gives me the best chance to thin the field and thus increase my chances of winning pot, rather I try to figure out how I can make/lose the most/least money in the hand. Link to post Share on other sites
simo_8ball 0 Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 I should also mention that I was out drinking a bit until 2:30am, so not only am I tired, I'm also a little bit drunk.Good to know I'm still thinking somewhat straight. Link to post Share on other sites
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