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help needed -- buying in for less than max....


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I have been playing $.50/$1.00 NLHE online, and buying in for $33 where the MAX is $100.My reason for doing this is that my post-flop play is not nearly as good as I'd like it to be. So I figured, rather than lose $100 when I make a poor decision, I would limit my losses in this manner.It has been a successful strategy for me, even though I am pretty sure it is not the best way to go about NLHE. It could be that I'm just playing above my BR, but I've done alright playing TAG multi-tables. Would someone mind explaining to me why this is a bad idea? Personally, given my weak post-flop play (fold too often, push at bad times, trouble making the tough lay downs -- though I did fold set to top set today!), I don't think it's a terrible idea. There should be a point, however, (assuming I continue to improve), where my post-flop play is good enough to make the MAX buy in a better idea.I know there are a lot of great players and "poker analysts" here at FCP, and would love to hear some of their thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

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Buying in for less than the max (if you can afford the max) is a terrible way to play no limit.It just cripples you when you try to play a pot, and reduces your game to preflop or flop move-ins. And one of the things that makes NL so lucrative is that YOU make more money when OTHER PEOPLE make post-flop mistakes.If you can't afford the max, drop down in stakes.A lot gets said about "Ed Miller's Shortstack Strategy" and others... but as for me... I'm not as smart as Ed Miller so I don't mind just buying in for the max and winning.

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You really should buy "Getting Started in Hold 'EM" by Ed Miller. Has great sections on how to play a short stack as well as a big stack in nl cash games.
Don't get me wrong, I love Ed Miller and he really knows his stuff...But I definitely don't think his shortstack strategy should be used by people trying to buy into games outside their bankroll and try to "build up steam" in the big game.I think your average internet (or live) player would do a lot better to buy in for the max at stakes they can afford and learn no limit that way.Shortstacks are bucking an edge against the tall stacks in no limit poker. Period.
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You really should buy "Getting Started in Hold 'EM" by Ed Miller. Has great sections on how to play a short stack as well as a big stack in nl cash games.
Don't get me wrong, I love Ed Miller and he really knows his stuff...But I definitely don't think his shortstack strategy should be used by people trying to buy into games outside their bankroll and try to "build up steam" in the big game.I think your average internet (or live) player would do a lot better to buy in for the max at stakes they can afford and learn no limit that way.Shortstacks are bucking an edge against the tall stacks in no limit poker. Period.
It gives advice on how to play a short stack AND a big stack. The player can decide which path they choose. The short stack is much better for someone who can't play as well/isn't as comfortable playing post flop.
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TJ -- I hear you, and I agree.Maybe I should drop down, because in the past, what has crippled me is carelessness with my big stack, or unwillingness (cause by my self-knowledge that my post-flop play leaves much to be desired) to play strong after the flop.Maybe the only way to know when I'm ready to play the big stack is to drop down to a limit where I can afford to play the big stack and see how I do.Problem is, for the most part, I feel like I can do okay at my current limits, even though I'm crippled by the short stack.Yes, I do need to some reading as well. Thanks for the prompt replies, guys.

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Shortstacks are bucking an edge against the tall stacks in no limit poker. Period.
I know this! I just don't quite understand the theory behind it, if that makes sense. I think you're right, TJ, I should drop down and learn with a MAX buy in. Suggested reading?
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The whole trying to conserve money and improve by risking less, your actually limiting your ability for a post-flop play that is realistic. Drop down or something like that.

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Is there anyone who can explain the theory/mathematics to my admittedly simple mind as to why it is such a disadvantage to play short-stacked in a NLHE cash game?My post-flop play is terrible, and will only get me into trouble if I buy in for the max.So yes, dropping down seems to be the thing to do.But it still doesn't answer the above question.

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Shortstacks are bucking an edge against the tall stacks in no limit poker. Period.
I know this! I just don't quite understand the theory behind it, if that makes sense. I think you're right, TJ, I should drop down and learn with a MAX buy in. Suggested reading?
Honestly...I really don't think there's one book for no limit hold'em that's as good as Small Stakes Hold'em is for limit.I can tell you some books that aren't good, though. Super System 1 only has NLH advice in beating Vegas high stakes games and Texas backroom games, not low limit online. It's great for the experience, and it's a fun read because that's where it all began, but it's misguided advice for someone trying to learn and beat small NLH games.Hellmuth's Play Poker like the Pro's is simplistic, weak-tight, and it's an homage to watching Phil Hellmuth stroke himself. I would have had more fun lighting 20 bucks on fire than spending it on that book.My favorite book is still Caro's Book of Tells. It's an absolute must-read for anyone playing live, but sadly it doesn't do much for your online game.I started learning (and am still learning) no limit by playing a lot, live and online, and reading absolutely everything I can find. This site has helped a lot too.
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Is there anyone who can explain the theory/mathematics to my admittedly simple mind as to why it is such a disadvantage to play short-stacked in a NLHE cash game?My post-flop play is terrible, and will only get me into trouble if I buy in for the max.So yes, dropping down seems to be the thing to do.But it still doesn't answer the above question.
Basically, if you're playing in a pot vs. someone with a max buy-in, you're going to get to the end of your stack before he is. Because of that, you're bringing a lot more stress on yourself than you would if you were closer to even with everyone else (and therefore more dangerous to them).Here's a situation: Say there's 20 bucks in the pot, you have 30 in front of you, and you're heads up out of position with a guy that has 100... and you have a marginal hand. Let's say you have top pair/weak kicker. You don't want to be way behind (dominated by kickers), and the only bet you can make is an all in... so you check.The alternative would be close your eyes, push all in, and hope for the best. You'll either bet 30 to win 20 and still be shortstacked at 50... or you'll get called by a hand that's crushing you.Since that's not a rosy alternative, you check to the dude. The guy with 100 wants to win that pot of 20, and wouldn't mind breaking you. Against a deep-stacked opponent, he'd bet about the pot ($20) because he wouldn't want to go crazy and walk into a trap, but yet he still wants to bet his hand (whatever it may be) because he's a tight aggressive player.But against YOU... because you checked, he's just going to move you in for your 30 right there. Now you have to decide a) what he's betting with (and it can be anything, a 8-9 out draw where he doesn't mind being in on the flop, or nothing), and b) if YOU have the stones to call off all your chips here.Your stack exists SOLELY to make big bets (hopefully with big hands!)... and if you spend too much of your stack CALLING big bets, you're not playing NL right.By playing shortstacked all the time... you aren't in the right mindset to play no limit cash games.And on a matter of personal preference from me... there are no other cardgames in this world that are as sexy, sometimes juicy, sometimes tough, fun, and skill-intensive games as deepstacked cash game no limit hold'em, where everyone has 200 big blinds or more.In live cardrooms, this usually equates to everyone that's left at 3 in the morning... the only people left are the strong players who broke all the weak shortstacks who dumped 100 bucks on the table. And THAT, my friend, is fun.
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Basically, if you're playing in a pot vs. someone with a max buy-in, you're going to get to the end of your stack before he is. Because of that, you're bringing a lot more stress on yourself than you would if you were closer to even with everyone else (and therefore more dangerous to them).Here's a situation: Say there's 20 bucks in the pot, you have 30 in front of you, and you're heads up out of position with a guy that has 100... and you have a marginal hand. Let's say you have top pair/weak kicker. You don't want to be way behind (dominated by kickers), and the only bet you can make is an all in... so you check.The guy with 100 wants to win that pot of 20, and wouldn't mind breaking you. Against a deep-stacked opponent, he'd bet about the pot ($20) because he wouldn't want to go crazy and walk into a trap, but yet he still wants to bet his hand (whatever it may be) because he's a tight aggressive player.But against YOU... because you checked, he's just going to move you in for 30 right there. Now you have to decide a) what he's betting with (and it can be anything, a 8-9 out draw where he doesn't mind being in on the flop, or nothing), and B) if YOU have the stones to call off all your chips here.Your stack exists SOLELY to make big bets (hopefully with big hands!)... and if you spend too much of your stack CALLING big bets, you're not playing NL right.By playing shortstacked all the time... you aren't in the right mindset to play no limit cash games.And on a matter of personal preference from me... there are no other cardgames in this world that are as sexy, sometimes juicy, sometimes tough, fun, and skill-intensive games as deepstacked cash game no limit hold'em, where everyone has 200 big blinds or more.In live cardrooms, this usually equates to everyone that's left at 3 in the morning... the only people left are the strong players who broke all the weak shortstacks who dumped 100 bucks on the table. And THAT, my friend, is fun.
The whole rest of the post doesn't matter after that bolded portion b/c being a short stack you don't put yourself in that situation. You also have LESS stress b/c your decisions are clear cut.
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The whole rest of the post doesn't matter after that bolded portion b/c being a short stack you don't put yourself in that situation. You also have LESS stress b/c your decisions are clear cut.
Okay... say you have KJo in the BB and it comes down K-Q-9 with two hearts. How quick do you want to go broke with that there?Or check/fold top pair.With a tall stack you could outplay other people, or definitely know you're no good. You could even be aggressive, get lucky, spike a gutshot, and crack a misplayed set of 9's for all his chips.All due respect to Ed Miller... being a shortstack sucks.
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The whole rest of the post doesn't matter after that bolded portion b/c being a short stack you don't put yourself in that situation. You also have LESS stress b/c your decisions are clear cut.
Okay... say you have KJo in the BB and it comes down K-Q-9 with two hearts. How quick do you want to go broke with that there?Or check/fold top pair.With a tall stack you could outplay other people, or definitely know you're no good. You could even be aggressive, get lucky, spike a gutshot, and crack a misplayed set of 9's for all his chips.All due respect to Ed Miller... being a shortstack sucks.
That's one of the main points is to make your decisions easier. You could also lose your whole stack, allow yourself to be outplayed by a bigger stack, etc..I suggest you read it and understand it before you say something sucks.
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great responses, guys.you're both right, in a sense, regarding the stress part.I KNOW i'm not terribly strong postflop (I can't seem to figure out if these guys are calling with weaker hands or smoothcalling to bust me, for one thing), so there IS less stress with the short stack. They may not be the decisions you want to be making in NLHE, and I KNOW it's not the best way to play the game, but there are, in fact, a lot of NO BRAINER decisions with the shortstack postflop.I've done well enough at both $.25/$.50 and $.50/$1.00, but I think I'll drop back to the $.25/$.50 and play fully STACKED! One thing about the jump in limits -- it definitely helped me to separate the $$ from the CHIPS....I got used to seeing $5...$10.....$25 of my stack bet out. So going back to $.25/$.50 will probably be beneficial.I've got a lot of holes in my game, I know. I think I'm underaggressive, but when I try to be aggressive, I seem to pick bad spots, or don't have the COJONES to make that next big bet at the turn and/or river.Further help needed there....but for now you've convinced me to drop down (at least until I need to play the $.50/$1.00 to clear a bonus, lol).I know the BIG STACK is advantageous, but I think the scared, not terribly competent BIG STACK is easily toppled.....I do know that I am missing out on a lot of the nuances of the game, too.

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I suggest you read it and understand it before you say something sucks.
No, I have not read Ed Miller's shortstack strategy. I'd be more than happy to read it if someone has a link handy.Yes, I have immense respect for Ed Miller's opinions.I was trying to show how, from my own experiences, I have come to the conclusion that being a shortstack sucks.From what I know of Ed Miller, though, I get the feeling that his "shortstack strategy" started as the purely academic question "What's the BEST way to play a shortstack?"I definitely don't think it's a good way to teach people at low stakes no limit.Dropping down in levels and playing properly funded is FAR better than buying in short and trying to teach yourself how to find "clear cut decisions to move in."
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I suggest you read it and understand it before you say something sucks.
No, I have not read Ed Miller's shortstack strategy. I'd be more than happy to read it if someone has a link handy.Yes, I have immense respect for Ed Miller's opinions.I was trying to show how, from my own experiences, I have come to the conclusion that being a shortstack sucks.From what I know of Ed Miller, though, I get the feeling that his "shortstack strategy" started as the purely academic question "What's the BEST way to play a shortstack?"I definitely don't think it's a good way to teach people at low stakes no limit.Dropping down in levels and playing properly funded is FAR better than buying in short and trying to teach yourself how to find "clear cut decisions to move in."
How can you say this when you don't know the strategy?Also you ARE properly funded, you need x amt. of buyins. Not x amt. of buyins of the max buy in.
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sigh.aseem
I've read the shortstack thread on 2+2 now!!!It's cute... and it's probably even profitable.I still think we should all buy in for 100 big blinds when we're playing no limit though.
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hahahaha,first of all, no one says short stack sucks. if your short stack game sucks, you suck. if your big stack game sucks you suck. thinking you will lose less money in the long run by buying in for less (somehow hiding your lack of skill) is absurd. negreanu has many posts about big stack vs. small stack. if you are the best player at your stakes, then you want to be big stacked so you win more--it's no easier.secondly, the hell you laid down set under set on the flop. if you did you're an idiot, you had 33 dollars!!!!!!!!

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hahahaha,first of all, no one says short stack sucks.  if your short stack game sucks, you suck.  if your big stack game sucks you suck.  thinking you will lose less money in the long run by buying in for less (somehow hiding your lack of skill) is absurd.  negreanu has many posts about big stack vs. small stack.  if you are the best player at your stakes, then you want to be big stacked so you win more--it's no easier.secondly, the hell you laid down set under set on the flop.  if you did you're an idiot, you had 33 dollars!!!!!!!!
I only call with the nuts. Or at least I take ten minutes to think about calling with non-nut hands.
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sigh.aseem
I've read the shortstack thread on 2+2 now!!!It's cute... and it's probably even profitable.I still think we should all buy in for 100 big blinds when we're playing no limit though.
sorry TJ, you haven't read the STRATEGY. i read the link brando posted also, it doesn't come close to explaining it the way miller does in his book.aseem
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Ed Miller's GSIH is number 6 on my "list of poker books I need to buy that I haven't read yet." And it's that high only out of my respect for Ed Miller.I read the thread you linked in the one brando started... and I see your position a little clearer now.I'm familiar enough with the intricacies of shortstack play, and I'm certainly aware of the difference between deepstack poker and normalstack poker.In context though... I thought it'd be best for people in general to be able to beat NL first before trying shortstack strategies, etc... and I think the best way to do that is with 100 big blinds.I'm sorry if that only further propogates the myths and misconceptions about shortstack play.

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