20/40 room for discussion...

[JaysonWeber 0]

How do you play this turn?Fold Call w/ intentions of calling a river betRaise for free showdown and fold valueUTG Limps in, I raise with KKWe see the flop headsupflop is As Ts 3hHe bets into me I callTurn is a blankHe bets into me...Chris and I discussed this hand for a long time on AIM, Give some feedback, What's the best option?

[Vade 0]

wouldn't raising the flop make a turn decision easier? Taking a shot at raising the pot seems reasonable. He could easily be on a draw or have a lesser pair

[JaysonWeber 0]

wouldn't raising the flop make a turn decision easier? Taking a shot at raising the pot seems reasonable. He could easily be on a draw or have a lesser pair

Well, Why should I raise the flop? What kinda draw is he on? And if he's got a lesser pair, he'll fold or slowdown if I raise here right?

[Vade 0]

Obviously I don't play at this level, but a flop raise would allow for two things. 1. There's no way you should just assume he has an ace, you're in front a decent amount of the time heads up. He could easily have a spade draw, or a gutshot straight draw or a 10 or something like 99 or 88 even right? 2. If he three bets you on the flop it's an easy check/fold if you don't hit a king on the turn. Since you just called on the flop, I think the turn is either a fold or a raise. Calling seems shaky because of the spades

[GamblinLeaf 0]

wouldn't raising the flop make a turn decision easier? Taking a shot at raising the pot seems reasonable. He could easily be on a draw or have a lesser pair

I'm not sure raising the flop scares UTG if he has an ace, as a flop raise could be coming from KQ of spades (which would have raised pre) or similar draw, and if he 3-bets we still don't know if he has an ace or is just being (maybe properly) aggro. Raising the turn, however, after smooth calling the flop (after raising pre) might scream big ace often enough to get UTG to back off, and now if he 3-bets we might have a better idea of where we stand.Curious what others think ...

[JaysonWeber 0]

Obviously I don't play at this level, but a flop raise would allow for two things.

This isn't Level Dependent, Although more effective and meaningful the higher you go, it still is a general concept that should be followed.

1. There's no way you should just assume he has an ace, you're in front a decent amount of the time heads up. He could easily have a spade draw, or a gutshot straight draw or a 10 or something like 99 or 88 even right?

I am assuming he might have an ace, and I am a decent amount of the time, especially heads up.He could have a spade draw, but betting it headsup isn't smart of him to do, and raising still won't price him off it. He isn't raising w/ a spade draw... What other hands did you say he could have.Okay gutshot straight draw, let him continue betting that, is betting a gutshot straight draw +EV against Kings? No it isn't so why stop him from betting again on the turn? A Ten, or 99 or 88 right? Yeah maybe, Infact I hope so. But if you hold a ten in this spot and get raised on the flop are you going to lead the turn? Nope. But what if he calls behind? Same goes for 88 or 99Got a theme here

[BeanGW 0]

If villain is LAG, just call down. I'd hate to fold to a three-bet, when I could show this hand down.If he's Passive, raise for a free showdown. He likely doesn't have a strong Ace (since he didn't raise preflop), since you did raise PF, so it's certainly possible that he thinks you have a stronger Ace, and were waiting for the turn to make your play.We need some reads.

[JaysonWeber 0]

No we don't nead any reads really... Against an aggro, How do you play it and why?Against a tight/passive, how do you play it and why?You mention that he might have a weak ace and by raising a tight/passive for a free showdown this will save us bets.How many bets is this losing us when he's betting us w/ a different mediocre hand we have beat that he's folding to aggression?How many times does a tight/passive Limp w/ A-9 or lower UTG?

[akishore 0]

haven't read any replies.against a passive player, raise-fold/check-call. a three-bet generally means you're beat, but you raise to charge him for drawing. check for the free showdown on the river, but if he bets, it's a good idea to call.against an aggressive player, call/check-call. this encourages him to keep bluffing, doesn't risk you folding the best hand to a three-bet, and loses the least to an ace.aseem

[JaysonWeber 0]

Read Some Replies now, Basically the one I wrote when I quoted Vade.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I simply call this down - I can't imagine any opponent who would both limp UTG with an A and then fold to a turn raise. (If the opponent is extremely weak-tight postflop, but would limp with AJ UTG, then a raise is probably the best play, but that's the only case I can think of.)I'm guessing you're behind here more often than you're ahead, and you have two outs when you're behind, while he likely has more when he's behind. So what good does a raise do?I also check behind on the river if he checks, regardless of the river card.

[wrto4556 0]

I also check behind on the river if he checks, regardless of the river card.

really? why?

[Actuary 3]

back to the flop....you're getting 1.6 : 1 to call down from the flop bet to the river.Are you ahead often enough of someone betting into you after you raised pf and an Ace hits the board ?apparently so because this point is not being discussed.so I'll shut up and read.

[guinevar 0]

I also check behind on the river if he checks, regardless of the river card.

really? why?

What if its a king? 8)

[JaysonWeber 0]

Just another tidbit...Scenario 1:*He bets and Raise the turn... He has invested 1 bet to our 2 bets... he is folding a weaker hand and calling/raising w/ a stronger one.We win 1 bet, we lose atleast 2.Scnario 2:*He bets the turn, We call behind.. He has invest 1 bet, we have invested 1 bet. If he is behind us, he now has an excuse to fire a third shell on the river making us a total of 2 bets, after we call his bet on the river to our 2 bets..we win 2 bets, we lose 2 no more, no less.So in each scenario we invest 2 bets, and in one scenario we earn a single bet when we are ahead and lose 2 bets when we arent.In another we've let him continue bluffing if we're ahead, and we've minimized our losses.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

I also check behind on the river if he checks, regardless of the river card.

really? why?

What if its a king? 8)

Well duh, because he could easily have QJ... (sw)Ok, I forgot about that one :oops: But I'm checking any non-K river because I figure I'm behind the majority of hands that will call (or raise), and I'm sure I'm not folding a better hand for one bet. I figure this is going to be a medium-weak A most of the time.

[BeanGW 0]

Jayson: I think your argument is pretty clear. And I can see the merits of just calling down no matter what villain's type is.You say you discussed this with Chris at length. After reading your argument I wonder what was the main argument for raising the turn being the more +EV play?

[JaysonWeber 0]

[09:39] wrto4556: hey i got a hand for you[09:39] wrto4556: 20/40 at party[09:39] wrto4556: UTG limps in and I raise KK [09:39] wrto4556: we see the flop HU[09:39] wrto4556: flop is AsTs3h[09:39] wrto4556: he bets into me and I call[09:40] wrto4556: I have Ks btw[09:40] wrto4556: turn is a blank[09:40] wrto4556: he bets i call[09:40] wrto4556: river is the 3s[09:40] wrto4556: he checks[09:40] wrto4556: i bet?[09:40] JaysonWeber22: Yeah[09:40] wrto4556: cool[09:40] wrto4556: think i should raise the flop?[09:40] JaysonWeber22: I think he's calling w/ enough losers at this point[09:40] wrto4556: me 2[09:41] JaysonWeber22: wait for the turn to raise I thinky[09:41] wrto4556: for free showdown?[09:41] JaysonWeber22: yeh[09:41] wrto4556: thats not a bad play[09:42] JaysonWeber22: I think that without position[09:42] JaysonWeber22: you should just check/call[09:43] JaysonWeber22: no need for a raise anywhere[09:43] JaysonWeber22: let him continue bluffing into you [09:43] JaysonWeber22: and if he's actually got the ace[09:43] JaysonWeber22: see it for cheap[09:43] JaysonWeber22: the way it's played I still think I might bet after that wierd check[09:43] wrto4556: yep[09:43] wrto4556: a turn raise sounds pretty solid to me[09:43] JaysonWeber22: You think?[09:44] wrto4556: yeah[09:44] JaysonWeber22: im beginning to doubt it[09:44] wrto4556: fold to a 3-bet and check behind on the river[09:44] JaysonWeber22: yeh[09:44] JaysonWeber22: that costs how many bets?[09:44] JaysonWeber22: 2, possibly three[09:45] JaysonWeber22: so see a river only when we're the likely winner[09:45] JaysonWeber22: or pay 2, no matter what, and see the river everytime[09:45] JaysonWeber22: and allowing yourself the chance to win 2 big bets[09:45] JaysonWeber22: instead of just one[09:45] wrto4556: yep[09:45] JaysonWeber22: as he is likely folding the turn c/r if he doesn't have it[09:45] JaysonWeber22: so let him continue bluffing, or betting his ace[09:45] JaysonWeber22: either way check/call[09:45] wrto4556: and maybe folding a weak ace[09:46] JaysonWeber22: he's folding a weak ace HU on that board n stuff?[09:46] JaysonWeber22: I dont think so[09:46] JaysonWeber22: and he isn't raising in EP w/ a weak ace[09:48] wrto4556: yeah[09:48] wrto4556: but he only has to do it one in a billion times[09:48] JaysonWeber22: No[09:48] JaysonWeber22: not really[09:48] wrto4556: yews[09:48] JaysonWeber22: because it wont pay for itself[09:48] JaysonWeber22: if it only works one in a billion[09:48] JaysonWeber22: thats chip spewing I think man[09:48] wrto4556: because im paying the same no matter what[09:48] JaysonWeber22: No your not[09:48] JaysonWeber22: You c/r the flop[09:48] JaysonWeber22: and check the river[09:48] JaysonWeber22: and he bets...[09:48] wrto4556: nonon o[09:48] JaysonWeber22: WDYD[09:48] wrto4556: im in position[09:48] JaysonWeber22: oh u r?[09:48] wrto4556: yep[09:48] JaysonWeber22: wait yeah[09:49] JaysonWeber22: thats what I mean hold up[09:49] JaysonWeber22: Okay so yeah same thing though[09:49] JaysonWeber22: if your in position[09:49] JaysonWeber22: he bets you raise on the turn right[09:49] JaysonWeber22: he calls that[09:49] JaysonWeber22: and then leads river[09:49] JaysonWeber22: you fold?[09:49] wrto4556: yep[09:49] JaysonWeber22: hmmm[09:49] JaysonWeber22: Okay I see where you're coming from[09:50] JaysonWeber22: but... does he lead the river anyways if you raise him on the turn?[09:50] JaysonWeber22: Gues he doesn't enough for it to matter[09:50] JaysonWeber22: cuz he only needs to do that one in a billion times for it to matter that was as well[09:50] JaysonWeber22: it just seems to neutral to risk not seeing the river[09:51] JaysonWeber22: because the times he 3 bets you[09:51] JaysonWeber22: and u fold[09:51] JaysonWeber22: you paid 2 and didn't see a river[09:51] JaysonWeber22: so take that into account I guess[09:51] JaysonWeber22: and your risking 2 to gain 1 if you raise the turn[09:51] wrto4556: good point[09:51] JaysonWeber22: and risking 2 to gain 2 by calling behind[09:51] wrto4556: and the he folds[09:51] wrto4556: a hand he would have bet the river with that i beat[09:51] JaysonWeber22: he's putting in more money w/ the worst of it if u just check behind[09:51] JaysonWeber22: yeah[09:51] JaysonWeber22: exactly[09:52] wrto4556: so you think calling down is better?[09:52] JaysonWeber22: yeah[09:52] JaysonWeber22: do you see why?[09:52] wrto4556: **** off[09:52] JaysonWeber22: oh whoa, I didnt mean that[09:52] JaysonWeber22: lol[09:52] JaysonWeber22: But you know why I think it is?[09:52] JaysonWeber22: I mean it seems to make sense[09:52] JaysonWeber22: as much as I love raising for a free showdown... we want him betting on the river again w/ the worst of it other than folding to the turn raise[09:52] wrto4556: thats true[09:53] JaysonWeber22: so.. thats gotta be the better option right?[09:53] wrto4556: if he is bluffing we should just let him bluff[09:53] JaysonWeber22: Yeah[09:53] wrto4556: wa/wb[09:53] JaysonWeber22: that's what we want [09:53] JaysonWeber22: yup[09:53] JaysonWeber22: thats what it seems like[09:53] JaysonWeber22: yeah check/call is right[09:53] JaysonWeber22: now that I think about it, it has to be[09:53] wrto4556: yep[09:54] wrto4556: what about the river bet?[09:54] JaysonWeber22: gotta give him a chance to fire a third shell[09:54] JaysonWeber22: I think its insane he checked[09:54] JaysonWeber22: so I think if he checks... bet?[09:54] wrto4556: the flush got there[09:54] JaysonWeber22: Really thin though, I mean he isn't going to raise much is he?[09:54] JaysonWeber22: man... he wont call much though[09:54] wrto4556: a T or a worse pair[09:54] JaysonWeber22: flush did get there, 2 pair'ish...[09:54] wrto4556: yea[09:54] JaysonWeber22: mmm I think maybe even check behind?[09:54] JaysonWeber22: damn its passive but ****[09:54] wrto4556: hey i got some people over[09:55] JaysonWeber22: Allright man[09:55] wrto4556: i got to run[09:55] JaysonWeber22: peace[09:55] wrto4556: post it if you want[09:55] JaysonWeber22: post that hand[09:55] JaysonWeber22: **** lol[09:55] JaysonWeber22: I will

[screech 0]

I like calling down. A flush draw isn't going to fold to a raise, but may bet the river as a bluff, since all you've done is called. This is essentially the same as raising for a free showdown, except you're garunteed to see a showdown and you won't get pushed off the turn by a 3-bet. Also, if you just call the turn, you can raise a river bet if you hit your K. I say let him bluff his money if has a weak hand. Fuck fold equity, I don't mind giving a hand with 4-5 outs a shot at the river. He's already costing himself by betting these hands anyway.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I like how chris played it. we talked about it. Betting into a PF raiser with a weak ace is just dumb in many ways.m So we could be looking at him betting with K10, 88, 77, 66, Q10, and J10. I think any higher PP he raises PF. Now if he puts us on JJ or QQ, then he could very well be trying to get us to fold. There is an outside chance that he could also be trying to push a gutshot through also. I like betting the river because we can possibly get a weak ace to fold if he has been donking us the whole way(yes this is likely people)

[109suited 0]

This is a similar hand to I think an Ed Miller example. He holds QQ and the flop is K77. He just calls down. I mean, it's a little different b/c there are more draws present on your board, but I really like calling down best.

[looshle 6]

I don't like the check on the end because he may actually have the ace and be afraid that you just hit the flush. He may be a donk and have hit his flush plannin to c/r the river. I think calling down IS best but I would probably check behind on this river.

[JaysonWeber 0]

So call behind is better right?

[screech 0]

So call behind is better right?

I think so. Induce bluffs when your ahead. Lose the same when you're behind w/ a chance to outdraw.

[monoatomic 0]

HAHAHAHAHAHAThe funniest part of the whole conversation...

[09:52] JaysonWeber22: do you see why?[09:52] wrto4556: censored off[09:52] JaysonWeber22: oh whoa, I didnt mean that[09:52] JaysonWeber22: lol

I get the joke and that is too ****ing funny!