Not C-betting A Big Pocket Pair?

[Royal_Tour 0]

So, i havent come across this idea anywhere yet. Maybe its touched on in a NL book, but i have yet to hear it. for example. its 1/2 No limiteffective stacks are 250 each. your villain in this hand is fairly unknown. Although the hands he has played, He looks like your regular type TAG player. Hero Holds QQHe opens in EP for 10. 2 folds to you, and you raise to 30, folds back to villain and he calls.Flop is K,7,4 rainbow. Villain checks,.........I think this spot seems like a no brainer c-bet. vs our opponents range, we can assign him having 99 - AA. AK, AQ maybe AJ. Out of this entire range, not much will call a Cbet except hands that beat us. Our normal Cbet here might be in the range of 45-50 (agree?) If we check behind on the turn, what are we hoping to accomplish you ask?well getting to showdown for cheap, and finding out a little more information on our opponent. I think using our position in this spot is Key.If we Cbet this flop, AA, KK, AK all calls or raises. QQ-10,10 might "Might" call. however they would have to put us on AQ to make such a bold call. so what if we check it through and call the turn if villain leads. how will that look?flop, K 7, 4. villain check, hero check.turn Xvillain bet 45. (our initial Cbet amount. ) If we call here, chances are that villain will slow down on the river and resort to a check/call. unless his hand has drastically improved. I can only see KK and maybe AA firing the river if we call behind on the turn. Everything else will want to get to showdown cheaply also because of the board texture and position.thoughts and comments on this idea??please tell me if i'm flawed because I thought about this tonight while at the table and it seems to make sense to me

[simo_8ball 0]

I will often check behind here with QQ+, AK. JJ and TT I'm less likely to check behind because there are 8 and 12 overcards that can come on the turn respectively.There's nothing wrong with the play.

[Moneyball16 0]

I check behind here with QQ alot too. It seems like a good spot due to the fact that there is not much value in a bet and our hand is vulnerable. I does put you in some shitty spots on the later streets though. Like Simo I am more likely to bet JJ or TT here too just because our hand is more vulnerable.

[simo_8ball 0]

The only problem is, this would be a great flop to c/bet with air, so when you check behind it could be somewhat transparent to a thinking opponent that you either have a reasonable hand.You would have to check behind with AQ and KK some of the time to properly balance your play.

[Royal_Tour 0]

The only problem is, this would be a great flop to c/bet with air, so when you check behind it could be somewhat transparent to a thinking opponent that you either have a reasonable hand.You would have to check behind with AQ and KK some of the time to properly balance your play.

I think if you`re going to think about possibly C-betting with air here, we have to have good reason for it. ie: our opponent is either a LAG or passive.what type of air hands do we re-pop here with an EP raiser...

[MikeBauer26 0]

I will fire about Potsized.My reasoning for this is: In very few scenarios my reraise will be read as AA (AK) AND villain will be holding KK (or seldom a set of sevens) and checking to me. Villain will let me know by reraising or flatt-calling though and I won't fall too much in love with my QQ.In all other scenarios, I am repping that I hit AK or better to villain and we are not allowing him to him to fill up for a set of 9s or maybe let him fill up his ace-X hand with a free ace.Considering giving free cards to villain hoping he will catch a Jack for his AJ and thus a playable hand hand seems unprofitable to me.I will happily take this down on the flop or give it up there. And although I mostly fail to follow Sklansky's math I think firing the flop should be profitable.

[simo_8ball 0]

I think if you`re going to think about possibly C-betting with air here, we have to have good reason for it. ie: our opponent is either a LAG or passive.what type of air hands do we re-pop here with an EP raiser...

AQ/AJ spring to mind. As do hands like QJ, JT and other hands we have made a play with.This is a great flop on which to c/bet those hands that have missed.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I will fire about Potsized.My reasoning for this is: In very few scenarios my reraise will be read as AA (AK) AND villain will be holding KK (or seldom a set of sevens) and checking to me. Villain will let me know by reraising or flatt-calling though and I won't fall too much in love with my QQ.In all other scenarios, I am repping that I hit AK or better to villain and we are not allowing him to him to fill up for a set of 9s or maybe let him fill up his ace-X hand with a free ace.Considering giving free cards to villain hoping he will catch a Jack for his AJ and thus a playable hand hand seems unprofitable to me.I will happily take this down on the flop or give it up there. And although I mostly fail to follow Sklansky's math I think firing the flop should be profitable.

Right,however, the idea is, villains range either completely misses this flop, or has hit it perfectly. We lose any chance at catching a set on the turn, or gettig to showdown if we're check/raised. By checking behind, we also rep a missed hand or a monster. a lot of opponents mght lead the turn with a middle pair to see if they can take it down. But will give up once called. Thats a bet we gain by not Cbetting the flop. In theory here, by Cbetting, we're basically just trying to push a middle pair or a naked Ace out of the pot so they dont catch up. In a case like that, how many cards can actually help our opponents. 2 or 3 at most? Do we lose any EV by checking and giving 1 free card. If they check the turn, there is no reason for us not to bet. Infact I'd encourage a turn bet if checked too.

[Royal_Tour 0]

AQ/AJ spring to mind. As do hands like QJ, JT and other hands we have made a play with.This is a great flop on which to c/bet those hands that have missed.

I think a repop with QJ or JT is going to turn into a bluff more often than anything. You're repping a big hand, if its the case, you can say any two cards will do. I mean, on this flop. if we re-poped with JT, and flop is K,7,3. and villain check/folds to our bet. its because he missed or is scared that we hit our K.But in this spot, we have a real hand. QQ, and we're now only behind AK, KK and AA. we can bet, essentially turning our hand into a semi-bluff, and lose value from a med PP, or we can check and reassess the turn.

[MikeBauer26 0]

Right,however, the idea is, villains range either completely misses this flop, or has hit it perfectly. We lose any chance at catching a set on the turn, or gettig to showdown if we're check/raised. By checking behind, we also rep a missed hand or a monster. a lot of opponents mght lead the turn with a middle pair to see if they can take it down. But will give up once called. Thats a bet we gain by not Cbetting the flop. In theory here, by Cbetting, we're basically just trying to push a middle pair or a naked Ace out of the pot so they dont catch up. In a case like that, how many cards can actually help our opponents. 2 or 3 at most? Do we lose any EV by checking and giving 1 free card. If they check the turn, there is no reason for us not to bet. Infact I'd encourage a turn bet if checked too.

We can propably discount AA from villains range as he might have 3 bet it preflop. Therefore I am mostly worried about him calling with KK here and trapping us on the flop. If he is tight he won't stick around with other hands that we beat. If we actually fill up with another Q and get Massive Action on the river we might still be behind so I am not too upset about loosing the opportunity to draw to a (possibly fatal) third queen. But then again It's still way to go for me in terms of learning the game :-)

[fckthis 0]

Don't we cbet here mainly because we do it with a wide range of hands, so sometimes we get looked up light, and other times we make the better hand fold? Plus we don't give any free cards to our opponents, so they have to pay in order to draw out. Why not use our positional advantage on turn, instead of letting him see the turn for free. Say you bet 45 and he flat calls. Now you can narrow the hands down to which he called with, and if then possibly bet the turn, or check it for pot control. Now he'll either check or bet the river. If he bets, you can see the board texture, and make a read as to whether a call/raise is warranted. I mean if you have checked the flop from time to time with various hands, then I guess it's ok, to mix up your play, but generally the cbet is standard.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Don't we cbet here mainly because we do it with a wide range of hands, so sometimes we get looked up light, and other times we make the better hand fold? Plus we don't give any free cards to our opponents, so they have to pay in order to draw out. Why not use our positional advantage on turn, instead of letting him see the turn for free. Say you bet 45 and he flat calls. Now you can narrow the hands down to which he called with, and if then possibly bet the turn, or check it for pot control. Now he'll either check or bet the river. If he bets, you can see the board texture, and make a read as to whether a call/raise is warranted. I mean if you have checked the flop from time to time with various hands, then I guess it's ok, to mix up your play, but generally the cbet is standard.

The idea that you're playing an opponent who just calls your flop bet is a variable, same with assuming he has seen u play this exact way before on a similar flop, maybe with a totally different hand.Not giving away your hand is obviously a big deal in poker. However, I think C-betting for the sake of betting to help go along with our previous hands, and our future hands is a bit of a leak. there isnt any better hands here that fold. and if we have enough reason to believe we get looked up light, then it poses another issue. Have we been lag and cbetting often?if so, will villains range open up even more? does he call light preflop? These would be variables which would make for a totally different situation imo.

[BuffDan 0]

The thing is, if we bet the flop, and check the turn, we may have to call the river, since checking the turn shows weakness, and thus we are calling bets on two streets fairly weak. But if we check the flop, call a bet on the turn, we can be fairly sure a river bet represents more strength, and can thus fold more confidently. So we only have to call one bet to get to showdown against hands we beat, this time on the turn.

Don't we cbet here mainly because we do it with a wide range of hands, so sometimes we get looked up light, and other times we make the better hand fold? Plus we don't give any free cards to our opponents, so they have to pay in order to draw out. Why not use our positional advantage on turn, instead of letting him see the turn for free. Say you bet 45 and he flat calls. Now you can narrow the hands down to which he called with, and if then possibly bet the turn, or check it for pot control. Now he'll either check or bet the river. If he bets, you can see the board texture, and make a read as to whether a call/raise is warranted. I mean if you have checked the flop from time to time with various hands, then I guess it's ok, to mix up your play, but generally the cbet is standard.

[tskillz187 0]

I think checking behind with QQ is pretty bad here. It's less bad if you balance ranges like Simo said, but I'm pretty much C-betting 100% on K high flops. I don't like turning QQ into a bluff catcher, especially if villain is capable of double barreling because it puts us in a tough spot on the river. Basically we are trading the FE we get by betting the flop in exchange for catching bluffs on the turn and hoping villain doesn't improve to a better hand than QQ. I'd rather have the lead against a TAG player. If we are deeper and villain is tricky, checking behind for pot control is a better option, IMO.

[Zach6668 513]

Revolutionary.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Mindblowingly Revolutionary.

FYP

[No_Neck 0]

if you ever bet it with air, then you shouhld be it here IMHO.

[IBFT 0]

If we raise pf with AK and C-bet a ten high flop, aren't the majority of the calls we get from something that beats us? (i understand some draws and some people calling to set up a move on the turn might call, too) I always try to keep my play uniform, if I'm c-betting strong, I should do it weak, and vice versa.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Revolutionary.

you play no limit games?wild.

[NoBBiR 0]

I think checking behind with QQ is pretty bad here. It's less bad if you balance ranges like Simo said, but I'm pretty much C-betting 100% on K high flops. I don't like turning QQ into a bluff catcher, especially if villain is capable of double barreling because it puts us in a tough spot on the river. Basically we are trading the FE we get by betting the flop in exchange for catching bluffs on the turn and hoping villain doesn't improve to a better hand than QQ. I'd rather have the lead against a TAG player. If we are deeper and villain is tricky, checking behind for pot control is a better option, IMO.

if you ever bet it with air, then you shouhld be it here IMHO.

^ This is why this is a bad idea. This is basically advocating against using our FE, which is half the point of raising preflop, and instead just calling people down and hoping they don't, 1) double barrel, 2) improve and put us in a tough spot on the river. Plus we open ourselves to getting bluffed off of our hand, which may be good, if villain suspects weakness after we check the flop and double barrels us with air. We really don't show a lot of strength by checking behind and then calling a turn bet. Almost every hand that I would fire in the villains position on the turn in this situation, I would then fire on the river if the guy just calls.Rule Numbero Uno: Aggressive > Passive.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Similar discussion

[fckthis 0]

The idea that you're playing an opponent who just calls your flop bet is a variable, same with assuming he has seen u play this exact way before on a similar flop, maybe with a totally different hand.Not giving away your hand is obviously a big deal in poker. However, I think C-betting for the sake of betting to help go along with our previous hands, and our future hands is a bit of a leak. there isnt any better hands here that fold. and if we have enough reason to believe we get looked up light, then it poses another issue. Have we been lag and cbetting often?if so, will villains range open up even more? does he call light preflop? These would be variables which would make for a totally different situation imo.

Ok, so we might not get villains to fold the best hand here (unless hes a nit and would fold KJ, KQ K10, type hands), but because you bet would bet the flop with AK, AA, KQ(tho i dont know if u 3 bet this), and QQ, JJ, etc., you can't check it with the bottom end of those ranges, and bet the with the top end. It makes your play so predictable. This is an interesting discussion, because it seems we are at least checking one street here, but I like the cbet here, because when we have air (AQ, AJ type hands), our cbet will fold out hands we beat. An interesting question I have is, are we checking the turn to get worse hands to bet? If so, then maybe it's not a terrible idea.

[Royal_Tour 0]

^ This is why this is a bad idea. This is basically advocating against using our FE, which is half the point of raising preflop, and instead just calling people down and hoping they don't, 1) double barrel, 2) improve and put us in a tough spot on the river. Plus we open ourselves to getting bluffed off of our hand, which may be good, if villain suspects weakness after we check the flop and double barrels us with air. We really don't show a lot of strength by checking behind and then calling a turn bet. Almost every hand that I would fire in the villains position on the turn in this situation, I would then fire on the river if the guy just calls.Rule Numbero Uno: Aggressive > Passive.

well, i wouldnt go as far as saying, "FE is half the point of raising preflop" IMO, its for value and to thin out a field, and buy position. Future FE is a small portion of it. And, you claiming to fire the river if you get called on the turn is very very situational. It depends on your cards obviously. I highly doubt you make a river bet with anything less than AK. The other thing you have to look at is the way its been played. an opening raise, then flat call. a lot of times you can eliminate AA,KK. also there are more variations of AK in this hand then AQ because we hold 2 of the Queens.So if you narrow villains range a bit more, it might consist of AK, JJ, 10,10.

[Zach6668 513]

you play no limit games?wild.

No, but I have a thourough grasp of poker theory, and understand various forms of poker.I'm not a one-trick pony who can beat his local live 1/2 NL game only.

[Royal_Tour 0]

No, but I have a thourough grasp of poker theory, and understand various forms of poker.I'm not a one-trick pony who can beat his local live 1/2 NL game only.

since when do u play live poker?its surely not a crack at me, since i'm the thunder keller of small stakes NL in las vegas