9 replies to this topic

[luvlyjubbly]

Hi all,I have read Daniel's 'small ball' section in his new Power Hold'em Strategy' book and tried it out in a recent £500 live deep-stack tourney. There are a couple of things that came up while playing which i can't find clear answers to in the book and so would appreciate it if some experienced small ballers could offer some tips.Daniel talks about the 'dead money grab' in his book and gives an example from out of the small blind. But how many bb's should i be raising when i have position and have like 2/3/4 limpers infront of me? Keeping in mind that i want to keep the pots small, how much should i be adding to my standard 2.5x raise. I was adding 0.5x per limper to the raise. ???For several hours during the tournament i had two good players sat to my left who kept just flat calling my 2.5x open raises (effectively playing small ball too) and so i was constantly having to play flops out of position and could feel myself being outplayed. I was effectively only having my button hand per orbit where i was in position on them. How do you counter such a stratetgy?any help much appreciated.

[Aces Rule]

A "dead money grab" isn't really a small ball move but rather a Long ball m0ve - with or without a real hand but usually with at least a A9+ or pocket pair. Making this move with ATC is an outright steal attempt but few have the nerve vs 3 or 4 players (vs 2 it's often refered to as a squeeze play). Your raise has to be big since the pot already has 3 or 4 BB from the limpers plus the sm & big blinds so if bb=100 you're looking at pot=550 with 4 limpers so your grab should be between 700 (3xbb + 1bb for each limper) and 1100 (dbl the pot). A lot will depend on blind size, how passive or active the table, your table image and your read on the limpers (50%+ to fold to a big raise) and don't forget the sm&/or big blind and the odds you're offering them. Don't try this as a steal too often - like rarely! I will often make this play with AK or AQ or pocket pairs 10+ b/c I always half expect to get one caller so want a playable hand post flop.If playing small ball and small ballers are to your left - switch hit to long ball and increase your pf raises until they stop flating you. This usually means playing fewer hands but after a while you can switch back to small ball. As blinds increase 2.5xbb pf raises become more standard for the whole table and will get more respect than earlier on however remember that once your stack gets to be less than 50-60bb you become less able to play small ball at all. Keep a keen eye on stack sizes as mid stacks are looking for cheap flops hoping to flop big while shorties are loking to get it all in and both of these stacks call for long ball tactics. You can still play small ball by flatting to other pf raises or limpers but more from MP2 and LP than earlier.Edit: Just looked up Daniel's passage on "dead money grab" (pg 310) and he's discribing this a primarily as a steall with ATC and recommends a dbl pot size bet to lay 2:1 odds. It's still a good play for AK/AQ however and if shown down (at show down or by you deliberately) makes a steal much easier later on in the match.

[Pdiddydog]

You should be adding an extra BB to your opening raise per limper. This changes if you are out of position however then you should add another BB to prevent them from calling. As for your counter strategy to the other small ballers, if you feel that the players are better then you or are just tougher opponents you should increase your raises especially if they constantly outplay you after the flop.

[copernicus]

Aces Rule, on Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 9:58 AM, said:

Edit: Just looked up Daniel's passage on "dead money grab" (pg 310) and he's discribing this a primarily as a steall with ATC and recommends a dbl pot size bet to lay 2:1 odds. It's still a good play for AK/AQ however and if shown down (at show down or by you deliberately) makes a steal much easier later on in the match.

A pot size bet lays 2:1 (maximum) odds. A double pot size bet lays a maximum 1.333:1 odds....there must be some terminology confusion here.

[Aces Rule]

copernicus, on Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

A pot size bet lays 2:1 (maximum) odds. A double pot size bet lays a maximum 1.333:1 odds....there must be some terminology confusion here.

I should have spotted that myself - too hurried making the edit I guess. Here's what Daniel wrote:"With $1325 in the pot, a rather large raise will win you the pot a very high percentage of the time provided that: a.,b.,c.,d." He list four conditions to making a grab at the pot but note the pot size here. Then 2 paras following he goes on to say "Let's say you decide on a $2600 raise. What you are basically doing is laying 2 to 1 odds that everyone will fold before the flop." So in his example the dbl pot size raise (2600 into a pot of 1325) will actually give about 1.5 to 1 pot odds. Oh ya, the blinds were 100/200 with 25 ante. The math aside, the raise to about dbl the pot size is being recommended for this move by both Daniel and myself in my post while in other books/articles/forum posts by other authors I've seen this raise as high as all-in push. I don't think that's recommended or necessary in a deep stack tourney and as Daniel says later:"Also, it's extremely important to note that you shouldn't risk a high percentage of your chips on a play like this." "~~ Never put yourself in a position where you are pot-committed with a terrible hand All-in push might be applicable to faster tourneys but if this move is being made as an ATC steal, the risk is very high imo since there are easier and less risky steals available.

[MovingIn]

This is a very dissimilar situation to what many players will see online. In a long slow live tournament, in the early levels, you aren't going to push players out of the pot PF here with a raise, if many have limped in. Many are going to at least call it and see a flop, because if the flop hits them really hard, two pair, a set, a straight, their hand will likely be very well disguised and the implied odds are immense if the flop hits anyone else.If you like your hand enough to see a flop, you may as well complete, see a flop and see if you can hit in similar fashion unless your hand is total garbage. You may even take it even if the flop misses you, if the flop looks ragged enough and you bet out half the pot. Obviously, if you have a premium hand, go ahead and raise for value, but you're not going to have much fold equity in the SB in a tourney like this.

[Mr. Sparco]

copernicus, on Wednesday, September 10th, 2008, 9:42 PM, said:

A pot size bet lays 2:1 (maximum) odds. A double pot size bet lays a maximum 1.333:1 odds....there must be some terminology confusion here.

I think you mean 3:2 = 1.5:1 in the second case? A triple pot bet would give 4:3 = 1.333:1 odds.Anyway, the terminology confusion is probably the following. If I bet twice the pot, my opponent gets 3:2 pot odds to call. On the other hand, what Daniel probably means (judging from the quote that Aces Rule posted; I don't have the book myself) is that this double pot bet will basically be our only shot at the pot; if we get a caller, we give up the hand. Therefore, for this to be a +EV move, we have to win twice for every time we lose. That is, it is the same as if we are laying 2:1 odds on the proposition "nobody will call".

[luvlyjubbly]

thanks very much for your replies. Aces Rule, like the advice on switching to long ball if i find myself with small ballers to my left. will implement that strategy next time. !

[nomadicpro]

here's something i do if i find the guy on my left is calling alot of my preflop raise and not allowing me to take his button. i limp in when its folded to me late, this always seems to throw people off and if they're small ballers they aren't going to want to raise light because they expect to be called by a limper. you'll get called by the blinds of course when you limp but you will notice that you have limp stole the button with more ease then when you were raising light. you are no effectively playing ultra smallball. you may be up against two opponents; however, your flop bet is now less than because it is a limped pot and can expect less resistance because no one expects a c-bet from a limper. once you've displayed an ability to limp you can return to smallball raising and players on your left will give your small raises more credit because you didn't limp like those other times.small ball is most effective when people on your left aren't paying enough attention to realize that you keep making small raises when its folded to you in late position. if they are noticing throw in a couple limps to throw them off, i like doing it when i happen to have two big cards so less likely to be dominated by a random blind hand. i disagree with the larger raises that others have suggested because it risks your chips and risking chips aint part of smallball.

[copernicus]

nomadicpro, on Friday, September 19th, 2008, 1:03 AM, said:

here's something i do if i find the guy on my left is calling alot of my preflop raise and not allowing me to take his button. i limp in when its folded to me late, this always seems to throw people off and if they're small ballers they aren't going to want to raise light because they expect to be called by a limper.

this is pretty standard defense against a small baller to your left, if the table has been reacting to his small ball play. Its why you want him seated to your left, not your right.