11 replies to this topic

[Actuary]

BB: 23/11/1.3 150 handsUTG+1: 56/0/0.41 30 handsUTG+2: 56/2/2 40 handsParty Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Actuary is MP3 with Q , T . UTG+1 posts a blind of $3. 1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Actuary calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (6.50 SB) 3 , 8 , 7 (6 players)SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, Actuary calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.Turn: (7.25 BB) 3 (4 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Actuary calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.River: (10.25 BB) Q (3 players)UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Actuary calls, UTG+1 calls.Final Pot: 13.25 BBRaise preflop? (SB and BB are the 20/12 variety, 1 SLAA, 1 SLAP)3 bet flop?Raise River?

[Zach6668]

I think it's ok. I'm not really sure I raise that river either. We are still beat by a ton of stuff that UTG+2 is holding. Going for an overcall will probably make use the same amount, if we are ahead, as if we raised, and we don't risk getting 3 bet by a better hand.Preflop, I will limp. I'm not 100% sure at what point it becomes a value raise with QTs.Flop, I'm just calling here, I want to give SB a chance to call two cold, instead of facing him with 3 cold.Looks good.- Zach

[screech]

I probably raise this up pf. The pot is not going to be small, so you're just raising for immediate equity + the button. A raise may also give you a free look at the turn.That said, it's really close to calling. I tend to limp a lot more with these hands than I used to.Flop is interesting. I think I like a 3-bet here just because BB probalby isn't folding, and the caller is too loose to fold. You have a ton of equity here plus the free card.Note that if I had reason to suspect both the BB and UTG would fold, I would just call here. Turn is standard.I raise the river. Again, because UTG is so loose, he will probably cold call any hand that he will overcall wiht. Switch UTG and BB, and I like a call better.Wow, I can't believe how aggressive I want to play this hand. I've played much more passively lately, but the dynamics of big multiway pots changes everything.

[TB17]

Raise Preflop? Nah, I dont like it. Limp looks good.3 Bet Flop? Nope, we want to keep everyone in so they can pay us off if they hit their flushRaise River? Yes, it looks like either A-8, or 9-9, theres a small chance he might've jammed a set, but really your line looks good enough to raise here

[screech]

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Raise Preflop? Nah, I dont like it. Limp looks good.

Raise Preflop? Yeah. Gets us the button. Exploits equity edge. Disguises our hand. May get free card on flop. Close though.

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3 Bet Flop? Nope, we want to keep everyone in so they can pay us off if they hit their flush

3 bet flop? Yeah. We have about 40% equity here. Only need 2 opponents to call to make it profitable. Caller is loose, BB likes his hand. I'm sure at least 1 (if not both) will call. Plus it may set up a free turn card.

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Raise River? Yes, it looks like either A-8, or 9-9, theres a small chance he might've jammed a set, but really your line looks good enough to raise here

Plus UTG is loose/bad and is probalby calling for 2 what he would for 1

[Briguy]

I like a 3-bet on the flop, given UTG+2's looseness and postflop aggression. He's popping the flop with any 8, maybe any 7, OESDs, FDs, plus the hands you fear (two pair, sets, overpairs to your overcards). Your overcards will be good against his range a good portion of the time if you hit one of them and miss the flush, and folding out other overcards is a good thing, especially JT or QJ or the like. Your equity doesn't suffer if everyone calls, given the flush draw.I don't mind a raise on the river. You are only losing to flopped sets and turned trips at that point, unless UTG+2 has Q8 or Q7 or UTG is playing river mousie with a better queen. That said, I puke a little if it comes back as a 3-bet.

[NWNewell]

Typically, I'm not raising pre-flop in this position. I like limping. However, in this spot, with the only two voluntary entrants being >50%VIP and very passive preflop, I would probably raise often if everyone after me was pretty tight/passive to try and get the button and play against only these two week players. But without that info or the right players behind me, I'm probably just limping. And even with that ideal situation, I don't mind limping.I'm definitely 3-betting the flop (and hope UTG+2 caps!). As screech said, we've got at least 36% pot equity, so even if we chace out the BB, we are still good (but since he already comitted 1 bet, the is prabably at least a 50% he will want to see the trun). Plus, with the button, we might have the option of a free card.The river depends on UTG+1 for me. If he has a very high showdwon percentage, I would want to raise. If not, then I probably want to just call. I don't want to raise and chase out UTG+1. If that happens, we are now risking 2BB to win 2BB on the river, instead of 1BB to win 2BB... doesn't make sense. I would rather just call and have UTG+1 call. But if UTG+1 would call two bets, I would probably raise it. I would have UTG+1 be my deciding factor. Also as a an extra benifit, if you where to 3-bet the flop (and depending on the raction on the flop and turn), it might give you some information and a better feel for how to play the river (are you up against a set or something?). But as it stands, UTG+2 has had the lead the whole way and it is tough to know exactly where you stand.

[Actuary]

trying to think about how this would play out had I raised preflopSB probably folds, and we have 5 to the flop, and 10.5 SB'sThe advice to 3 bet would still be valid, given similar action, right?And if it's checked to me, I should bet.if 4 handed to the turn, pot 7BB's, I'd take the free card, if given, or call a bet.River, I'm not comfortable raising.I think not 3-betting flop was a big error.

[amarillotg]

screech, on Wednesday, March 29th, 2006, 6:07 PM, said:

I probably raise this up pf. The pot is not going to be small, so you're just raising for immediate equity + the button. A raise may also give you a free look at the turn.That said, it's really close to calling. I tend to limp a lot more with these hands than I used to.Flop is interesting. I think I like a 3-bet here just because BB probalby isn't folding, and the caller is too loose to fold. You have a ton of equity here plus the free card.Note that if I had reason to suspect both the BB and UTG would fold, I would just call here. Turn is standard.I raise the river. Again, because UTG is so loose, he will probably cold call any hand that he will overcall wiht. Switch UTG and BB, and I like a call better.Wow, I can't believe how aggressive I want to play this hand. I've played much more passively lately, but the dynamics of big multiway pots changes everything.

i wish and strive to think like this while in the middle of a hand.

[NWNewell]

Actuary, on Thursday, March 30th, 2006, 11:09 AM, said:

trying to think about how this would play out had I raised preflopSB probably folds, and we have 5 to the flop, and 10.5 SB'sThe advice to 3 bet would still be valid, given similar action, right?And if it's checked to me, I should bet.if 4 handed to the turn, pot 7BB's, I'd take the free card, if given, or call a bet.River, I'm not comfortable raising.I think not 3-betting flop was a big error.

Actually, if I decide to raise, as I said I wan't the small blind fold. At that point, I'm not playing for the flush. I'm trying to play against the weak UTG and UTG+2's weak hole card standards. Expecting that a pair of tens or queens will hold up more than my fair share (>33%). But like I said, if I don't think I can get that situation (which is probably more typical), I'm limping.But even if the SB folds and we flop the flush draw... Yeah, playing out the hand the same way is still valid. If you work out the numbers losing that 1SB doesn't even come close to a negative EV.As far as the turn, again depends on their showdown numbers. If you think you will get at least two calls, bet! You have proper odds to increase your EV by 0.08BB. if you think you might only get 1 caller, take the free card since you would decrease your EV by 0.28BB.As I said, i don't have a problem only calling the river. But if I feel confident that UTG+1 would call 2 bets, I would be tempted to raise.

amarillotg, on Thursday, March 30th, 2006, 12:18 PM, said:

i wish and strive to think like this while in the middle of a hand.

lol.... No doubt!!I guess the trick is to become so familar with this type of sitaution (as similar situation will happen often over time), that you've already thought it out (by discussing it in threads like this and such) and know what you want to do.As the pros say, reading all the books you want is great, but there is no subsitute for experience!

[pokerplayer24]

I raise preflop. Buy button, good equity considering poster and blinds.Flop I 3-bet it. We have 2 overs to go along with our flush draw, so our equity is good and the possibility of a free card makes it even better. I dont think UTG+1 is folding for 2 more bets so its going to be at least 3 way and possibly 4 way.Turn normalRiver I just call I think, rather get the overcall from UTG+1. Meh its close though. Is UTG+1 calling 2 cold with 7x or 8x, it really seems like he would right?Blah reading replies I basically said exactly what screech said, guess thats a good thing though.

[MasterLJ]

With no pre-flop aggression I'm capping the flop because generally your Q is good along with the flush draw. In fact, with so many in the hand, the naked flush draw alone is laying odds to pump the pot.You can win x bets 36% of the time,or you can win 2x bets 36% of the time,Take your pick.