kk against a maniac [ps 2/4]

[Absolute 0]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) convertervillian is 61/14/3.2i have less than 20 hands at showdown with him, but i have two hands showing him capping AJ and 88 pre-flop, for some indication of how aggressive he was, especially before the flop.PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Absolute is BB with K:club:, K:heart:. 6 folds, Absolute calls.Flop: (8.50 SB) 2:spade:, 5:spade:, 5:club: (2 players)Absolute bets, Absolute calls.Turn: (8.25 BB) A:spade: (2 players)Absolute checks, CO bets, Absolute ???

[Smasharoo 0]

Call.Check/call. 2bb to see the showdown is getting 4 to 1 or whatever. Well worth it.Raising doesn't do much for you given the wide range of hands.

[Absolute 0]

Call.Check/call. 2bb to see the showdown is getting 4 to 1 or whatever. Well worth it.Raising doesn't do much for you given the wide range of hands.

you dont think i should have bet the turn?

[Smasharoo 0]

you dont think i should have bet the turn?Nah, it's not like you have fold equity against maniacs.You could bet/fold to a raise there, but it sucks to fold to QQ/JJ etc. here.

[Absolute 0]

you dont think i should have bet the turn?Nah, it's not like you have fold equity against maniacs.You could bet/fold to a raise there, but it sucks to fold to QQ/JJ etc. here.

fold equity would not be the point of leading the turn.i think bet/calling and c/c the river if he raises the turn is a good line.im beat some of the time, but a lot of the time i am way ahead to hands like JJ, QQ, TT, 99, 88, all of which a maniac plays this way.its hard to put even a maniac on a 2 or a 5 when he caps before the flop.and i cant worry about the flush here.

[PrtyPSux 0]

:clap: teamwork...well done :-) as for the hand, I know less than either of you about limit, so I wont comment.

[PrtyPSux 0]

its hard to put even a maniac on a 2 or a 5 when he caps the turn.and i cant worry about the flush here.

you can about A10s-AK cant you? I still think hed play this way if he's oober LAG.[edit] just looked at the hand again, maybe A10 and AJ he wont play that way, but he might AQ and AK

[Absolute 0]

its hard to put even a maniac on a 2 or a 5 when he caps the turn.and i cant worry about the flush here.

you can about A10s-AK cant you? I still think hed play this way if he's oober LAG.

i didnt mean to say cap the turn. i meant pf.i edited it.you could be right, but im not sure hed play the flop that way. maybe with AK.its almost always a worse pair i think. sometimes its AA.

[Smasharoo 0]

i think bet/calling and c/c the river if he raises the turn is a good line. I think it's kind of silly. You have to be ahead more than most of the time to make it +EV.The only time it makes you any money is when he raises with a worse hand and even maniacs will check behind on the river occasionally so you need him to have a worse hand, raise, and bet out to your river check twice as often as he has spades, an ace, a 5, etc.Don't see it being the case.

[wrto4556 0]

you dont think i should have bet the turn?Nah, it's not like you have fold equity against maniacs.You could bet/fold to a raise there, but it sucks to fold to QQ/JJ etc. here.

Who said anything about folding the turn!? Id feel comfortable putting in at least 2 bets. Smash, you play scared.It makes me sick.Why do you talk about fold equity when you should be considering value bets? I think you lack good hand reading skills and automatically consider only what beats you and not what *you beat*. Compare the two, against described OPP there are more than 70% of hands he raises that we beat. If it wasn't for the ace, I hope to god you would cap this turn. It coming A shouldn't cut what you planned on putting in by 3/4.I refuse to get in the middle of any stupid tantrum you may have.

[Absolute 0]

you dont think i should have bet the turn?Nah, it's not like you have fold equity against maniacs.You could bet/fold to a raise there, but it sucks to fold to QQ/JJ etc. here.

Who said anything about folding the turn!? Id feel comfortable putting in at least 2 bets. Smash, you play scared.It makes me sick.Why do you talk about fold equity when you should be considering value bets? I think you lack good hand reading skills and automatically consider only what beats you and not what *you beat*. Compare the two, against described OPP there are more than 70% of hands he raises that we beat. If it wasn't for the ace, I hope to god you would cap this turn. It coming A shouldn't cut what you planned on putting in by 3/4.I refuse to get in the middle of any stupid tantrum you may have.

i lean more towards this line of thinkingim probably still a little too passive to comfortably put 3 bets in on the turn, although i probably should be doing so.but my initial thought was that i definitely wanted two bets in, which is why i went for a check/raise.

[Smasharoo 0]

Smash, you play scared.It makes me sick. How many BB/100 are you beating 5/10 for these days?

[Absolute 0]

Smash, you play scared.It makes me sick. How many BB/100 are you beating 5/10 for these days?

probably .2/100 less than you after he gives you the answer.but we have reason to believe himhe reveals his user name and all.

[Smasharoo 0]

probably .2/100 less than you after he gives you the answer.but we have reason to believe himhe reveals his user name and all.Was just asking the question.Let the jealousy thing go, will you? I'm not lying to you. I'm not saying I'm beating 5/10 for 4bb/100 or anything.Calm the fuck down. I was just curious.A better player should be beating for more than me, right?A better player wouldn't be weak tight, miss value bets etc. etc.Just wondering he was doing.

[Absolute 0]

probably .2/100 less than you after he gives you the answer.but we have reason to believe himhe reveals his user name and all.Was just asking the question.Let the jealousy thing go, will you? I'm not lying to you. I'm not saying I'm beating 5/10 for 4bb/100 or anything.Calm the fuck down. I was just curious.A better player should be beating for more than me, right?A better player wouldn't be weak tight, miss value bets etc. etc.Just wondering he was doing.

its "curious" that you quote the part of the hand where he insulted your play before asking, if you were in fact "just asking a question".but whatever.you just have to be a fucking ******* all the time, i guess.

[Smasharoo 0]

its "curious" that you quote the part of the hand where he insulted your play before asking, if you were in fact "just asking a question".but whatever.you just have to be a ****ing censored all the time, i guessHe insults me.I ask a question.Yeah, I'm the jerk.Weird little reality you live in.Money is how we keep score, isn't it. The better player makes more, right?I expect he's killing 5/10. Was just wondering how badly he was crushing it.

[Absolute 0]

its "curious" that you quote the part of the hand where he insulted your play before asking, if you were in fact "just asking a question".but whatever.you just have to be a censored censored all the time, i guessHe insults me.I ask a question.Yeah, I'm the jerk.Weird little reality you live in.Money is how we keep score, isn't it. The better player makes more, right?I expect he's killing 5/10. Was just wondering how badly he was crushing it.

weird little reality i live in?weird little reality you live in when you fail to realize the power of implication. to think i thought you were the next great romance novelist.

[Smasharoo 0]

weird little reality you live in when you fail to realize the power of implicationWhat's the implication?Seriously.If he's killing 5/10 what does that get me?I think you're seeing implications where there aren't any.Parnaoia maybe.

[Absolute 0]

weird little reality you live in when you fail to realize the power of implicationWhat's the implication?Seriously.If he's killing 5/10 what does that get me?I think you're seeing implications where there aren't any.Parnaoia maybe.

okwhat are you crushing the 5/10 games for?

[Smasharoo 0]

okwhat are you crushing the 5/10 games for?2 and a halfish.Only about 40k hands in though, so who knows where I'll land.

[Absolute 0]

okwhat are you crushing the 5/10 games for?2 and a halfish.Only about 40k hands in though, so who knows where I'll land.

2 and a halfish seems to be the going rate for solid players.and because chris doesnt really read the forum, i can tell you hes about the same (from what he has told me in recent conversation)i think his swings are more severe though because he plays games looser than partyhed have to tell you, really.

[Smasharoo 0]

hed have to tell you, really.That would be why I asked.

[oreogod 0]

i think bet/calling and c/c the river if he raises the turn is a good line.

Ah, no.

Who said anything about folding the turn!? Id feel comfortable putting in at least 2 bets. Smash, you play scared.It makes me sick.Why do you talk about fold equity when you should be considering value bets? I think you lack good hand reading skills and automatically consider only what beats you and not what *you beat*. Compare the two, against described OPP there are more than 70% of hands he raises that we beat. If it wasn't for the ace, I hope to god you would cap this turn. It coming A shouldn't cut what you planned on putting in by 3/4.I refuse to get in the middle of any stupid tantrum you may have.

20 hands is not what Id call a solid read. Probably not the case here, but Ive had TAGs have those stats after sitting at the table for 20 hands, catching them on a decent run of cards...only 40 hands later turn into TAGs when at first it looked like they were extreme LAGs. If this was over more hands, Id probably run with it.If the guy is doing this every hand I can see betting the turn. But betting/calling the raise (u know its coming), calling the river is kind of silly. Which leads to...

i think his swings are more severe though because he plays games looser than party

...what I can only find to be a silly excuse if its true. There are swings for everyone, but if you are constatly having severe swings it usually means u need to be able to start tossing some hands that are beat instead of calling/raising with them (unless this is six max with all its crazy swings)If this is short term, chalk it up to variance...if its long term, start looking into the play.The loosest games I know are party .50/1.00 and PS low limits...which I dont usually play, but Im doing a project kind of like what smash was doing awhile back, anyway if I can beat those at a good clip, without extreme swings, I find this to be a silly excuse. There might be a little more variance, but loose games are so easy to beat...it might put a little more swing in your game, but not much if you're playing well over the longrun. In fact u should be making more money over the long run at loose tables.Also, seriously, why do ppl take offense so easily...

[PrtyPSux 0]

back to the hand shall we?I'm barely learning the ropes to limit so be patient, why would a bet here be good? I understand w/ out position that a check will invite him to bet no matter what, but if you do bet and he raises then what? do you fold or just check/call down? if so you are probably not ahead and lost 1BB. Also, wouldnt a c/r invite a 3 bet here sometimes? what would be your reaction to a three bet?thanks. and please please keep the arguing (its constructive and helps us learn) and stop the insults (its deconstructive and keeps us from learning) :-)

[ddudley 0]

I may be out of touch with the players at 2/4 but I'm gonna to have to agree with Smash on this one.The A is the absolute worst card in the deck. Why do you want to bet out here? He may have a lower pocket pair or he may have one of the numerous hands that now beat you... any A, a 5, the flush or the wheel. Besides, not slowing down when the worst card in the deck shows up is a bad habit to get into, even against a maniac. If you bet out and he raises what have you found out? Are you going to fold to his raise? I'm certainly not. If you bet he's going to put you on an A and then react accordingly. If you are beat he will raise and if he is beat he will call so you have accomplished nothing by betting out.If another comes on the river you are really in bad shape. Why are you not worried about the flush? Where I come from maniacs play suited cards and flush draws like this too. Is maniac a good description of this player? You say maniac but then you take him off a bunch of hands that a maniac would play. Maybe he just overplays pocket pairs and group 5 hands?I would call the turn then check-call the river.