112 replies to this topic

[timwakefield]

lordofelt, on Wednesday, January 30th, 2008, 10:30 PM, said:

My question is basically what do Buddhist's think of people taking on the eightfold path but rejecting the view of reincarnation? Also Buddhism generally seems to be the most allowing and free-flowing religion of the world compared to Christianity or Islam or Judiasm and I was wondering if you think this is due to the lack of hierachy and no central authority ala the pope in Catholicsm?Interested to hear whatever you have to say on this.

Well, as far as the first question, the eightfold path is laid out for monks to follow as a path towards enlightenment. It's not meant as a strict way for a lay Buddhist to live (note that one of the 'folds' is to remain chaste), and for monks it's simply the path that Buddha found which lead him to enlightenment. It's not like you get in trouble for not following it, although if you are practicing meditation or zen study as a monk in a monastery you would get in trouble for not following their rules. As far as hierarchy, well in Tibetan Buddhism there is the Dalai Lama (who is chosen by way of discovery...as in, a few years after he dies they discover his reincarnated self in a child, although the 14th and current Dalai Lama has actually suggested that a general vote be held among Tibetans in exile about whether his successor should be chosen the traditional way or not). There is also a hierarchy of lamas somewhat similar to the bishops and archbishops in Catholicism, and the Dalai Lama acts as spiritual and political leader of Tibet. But that is just Tibetan Buddhism, and unlike the Pope who is chosen as an adult by Cardinals, the Dalai Lama is considered to be a reincarnation of Chenrezig, (Avalokiteśvara in Sanskrit), the bodhisattva of compassion, and is brought up from the age of 4 or 5 to be the leader of his people. But yeah, you certainly don't have to take a vow or anything to be a Buddhist, you simply have to practice meditation and believe in the Dharma (Buddha's teachings), and any other Buddhist lay person or monk would certainly recognize you as a Buddhist. So in that way it's free and open.

[Southern Buddhist]

Wow, I am blown away by how much understanding and wisdom you guys are showing. Really deep, smart interpretations of ideas that a lot of people find confusing.The belief in reincarnation is more or less a holdover from the Hindu milieu out of which Buddhism grew. You don't have to believe in it at all. I find it a charming idea, but I don't have faith in it happening literally.What you say about Buddhism being allowing and free-flowing is what I love about it, but at the same time a lot of Americans (dumber Americans than you) hear that and think "oh, anything goes, whatever feels good I can justify through Buddhism because it doesn't have any rules." It doesn't have hard and fast rules, but that's because it's totally happening within you. [And I think that's why it is the way it is, not necessarily because of religious hierarchy.] What I'm talking about is karma. Karma just means response -- the way Buddhists often put it is, "Suffering follows evil deeds as the wheel of a cart follows the ox. Happiness follows good deeds as the wheel of a cart follows the ox." Karma is that simple and that automatic. There's very little you can do to alter it except to change your deeds. The more good you do, the more happiness follows and the happier you and those around you will be. Do bad deeds, and you will suffer as a result (for those who do believe in reincarnation, you may suffer with a lower rebirth).The college I went to had a motto: "In the final analysis, every student is responsible for his/her own education." What that meant to me was that if I wanted to sign up only for classes that met after 2 PM and arrange my schedule so that I had Fridays off and no big papers, that was fine. I would graduate dumber than a rock, but the school really didn't care. I was going to pay the price for my choices. If I took five classes a semester and chose the hardest professors and had 300 pages of writing due in one term (yep, that was me), then I would graduate smart, with a virtually unlimited future, and I would reap the rewards of my choices.So Buddhism seems very allowing because it's not the rest of us or society that will reap the consequences of your deeds, good or bad. It's you. It's up to you what it is you want to reap, and arrange your behavior accordingly.I want to stay away from how we are like or unlike Christianity, but I do have to say that this is a big reason for me to be Buddhist. I was sexually abused as a child, and Christianity tells me that my abuser can just ask forgiveness and get it without having to do anything else (like apologizing or admitting his crime) and he can go to the same heaven as I would, if I were a believer. A rapist can go to heaven, right alongside his victim. Where's the divine justice in that? I've never molested a child, most raped women have never turned around and raped others. How do we deserve nothing more than the people who did such harm? How do they deserve nothing less than those whose lives and souls they forever damaged? I've asked ministers this, and their response was all about the importance of forgiveness. They didn't seem to get it when I said Christianity struck me as the perfect religion for perpetrators, but not so good a one for victims. God essentially forgets the rape and returns the rapist to a state of innocence before the rape occurred. That's nice, but can he return the woman there, too? Can he return her to a time before the rape, before she stayed in a locked house after dark or flinched when men looked at her? Not that I've ever heard.You're exactly right that ridding yourself of desire and grasping (even grasping to those we love) is not cold at all, but all about fully loving them and appreciating them in the moment. Every moment is precious if you treat it as the only one you have, and what hurts is when we hold on to "you were different when we were dating," or "I don't want my mom to grow old." Those thoughts create suffering for us, because we can't turn back the clock or stop it entirely. People do change. Love them now, for who they are now. And then tomorrow, love them for who they are then.In fact, this, too, is why Buddhism is so allowing and free-flowing. If you love someone for who they are each moment, instead of comparing that moment to previous ones you liked better, then you just sort of automatically judge them less and appreciate their little quirks more, and when you treat the whole world that way, the whole idea of judging and resisting the things you don't like and clinging to the things you do like just sort of starts to fall away. You find that you can love a whole lot more than you ever thought you could.To Longshottwelves's questions (do we cease to be human by ceasing to grasp, does anyone achieve perfection, and do we have to follow the path to a T), I'll throw my two cents in as well. As Tim and Checky both said, by not grasping we become more expansive, more loving, more relaxed, and better than human -- we become more buddha-like! The Zen take on achieving perfection is to liken humans and buddhahood to a buried jewel. We all have the perfection of buddhahood inside -- every last one of us. The difference is whether or not we'll make the effort to clear away the dirt covering that jewel. If we never make the effort, the jewel will never be seen. If we make some effort, some glimmers may appear, but only if we really carefully sweep away all the dirt (bad habits, grasping, selfish motivations, etc.) will the jewel fully shine for everyone to see and fully enrich our lives. Lastly, Buddhism is very much a path of "do your best right now." Your best right now may not be very good -- maybe it's just passing up that second rock of crack. But if that's your best, then you get 'credit' for that. Maybe your best is to sit in meditation until you achieve full enlightenment like the Buddha himself. Whatever your best is in this moment, just do that. And keep doing that. Lists and paths aside, that's the whole thing.

[timwakefield]

Southern Buddhist, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 5:26 PM, said:

Every moment is precious if you treat it as the only one you have, and what hurts is when we hold on to "you were different when we were dating," or "I don't want my mom to grow old."

The last time I saw my Tibetan monk friend Lama Lobsang, he was working in a bakery in Cambridge. It was the first time I'd seen him not in his robes (he was wearing jeans and a shirt and an apron), and had recently taken this job after being granted political asylum in the U.S. (he fled Tibet as a child and lived in India most of his life). So I went to visit him with my mom, who is about 60. It was a little chilly out, and anyways when we got there he gave us his usual big hug, and he always holds both of your hands firmly and stares right into your eyes. So my mom has notoriously cold hands, and he started laughing about how cold her hands were. His English isn't so great (when he led meditation groups and discussions he used a translator), but basically he starts saying about how that is how things work, my mom was young once and now she is getting old and her hands are cold, and here I am her son and eventually I will have kids and then I will get old and die. All the while he has a huge smile on his face and he's laughing with us and everything. Anyways, I think that's a good illustration of how Buddhists think about death and loss.And on another subject (regarding loving all creatures) - Buddhists take very seriously the teaching that 'all creatures tremble before death,' and believe that when you realize the meaning of this you cannot think to do harm to another creature.

[Southern Buddhist]

Quote

And on another subject (regarding loving all creatures) - Buddhists take very seriously the teaching that 'all creatures tremble before death,' and believe that when you realize the meaning of this you cannot think to do harm to another creature.

You're absolutely right. To apply this just to food (although it applies to all behavior), I'm not completely a vegetarian. I eat fish and seafood, but no land animals. That's because there is no doubt that cows and pigs feel fear in slaughterhouses. They suffer when they die, and I'm not comfortable being the cause of that suffering. You're also right, of course, that Tibet is a hugely meat-eating country, because the climate is so harsh that vegetables are nearly impossible to grow. But they eat meat both with the desire to cause as little suffering as possible to the animal, and with an understanding that even though meat is their basic diet, there is still a karmic charge that they accrue because of it. They don't just give themselves an entirely free pass. They understand that ideally, not eating meat is better, but they don't live in an ideal world. Here in America, we pretty much do live in an ideal world, in terms of food supply. I can choose any form of food, so ideally, I should choose vegetarian. I know there's a karmic price for eating seafood, but I'm more comfortable that shrimp don't feel fear or pain on being swept up in a net.

[timwakefield]

Southern Buddhist, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 6:10 PM, said:

But they eat meat ... with an understanding that even though meat is their basic diet, there is still a karmic charge that they accrue because of it.

That's interesting, I didn't know that.And as far as loving everybody (even your enemies), here's another short story about Lama Lobsang: I was over at his house one time (he was living with my mom's best friend, who basically took him in and provided for him until he was granted asylum), and we were looking at a book about Tibet. It was pretty cool seeing all these pictures of Tibetan lamas and monasteries and he knew a good number of the people, and was talking about the times he'd met the Dalai Lama and things. Anyways we got to a picture of the Chinese occupying Tibet, and he got a very serious expression on his face and said "Chinese very very bad.......hahahhaha" and then started laughing, not because he was kidding but just because the world is funny I guess. Anyways there was a banner with some Chinese characters on it, and Lobsang starts looking really closely at them, and slowly starts reading, "Chang.....Sho.....Ching........hahahhaha, no I not speak Chinese!" and starts laughing. These are the people who invaded his land, destroyed his temples, and killed and displaced his people, and he treats them with laughter. Pretty amazing I think.

[Southern Buddhist]

timwakefield, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 6:16 PM, said:

That's interesting, I didn't know that.

That's my understanding, at least. Your friend would know more than I, but Buddhists tend to be pretty honest about their own behavior. I will certainly concede that I might be wrong.

[timwakefield]

Southern Buddhist, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 6:19 PM, said:

That's my understanding, at least. Your friend would know more than I, but Buddhists tend to be pretty honest about their own behavior. I will certainly concede that I might be wrong.

Oh no you're probably right.

[longshottwelve]

Thanks for answering my questions on Buddhism, guys. The majority of my friends are Vietnamese and Cambodian and all claim to be Buddhist, but none can ever describe to me what Buddhism is all about. What I know I learned in college and it always seemed to be rather cold to me. It's good to get some clarification from those who actually practice it.

[timwakefield]

longshottwelve, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 6:39 PM, said:

It's good to get some clarification from those who actually practice it.

Unlike Southern Buddhist, I don't actually practice. I hope to start though, maybe this year.

[Southern Buddhist]

timwakefield, on Friday, February 1st, 2008, 6:43 PM, said:

Unlike Southern Buddhist, I don't actually practice. I hope to start though, maybe this year.

Wow. For someone who doesn't practice, you have a _ton_ of understanding. Very impressive.

[Southern Buddhist]

I was walking home from work, and something occurred to me...The Bible is very concerned about building a society, i.e., how people behave toward their neighbors, when you should stone your neighbors, what is an abomination, whether you should convince them to convert, taking the gospel to them, how justice is supposed to be meted out, etc. and so on. In fact, the more I think about it, the vast majority of the Bible, both testaments, is about living in community with others and setting up rules for that.Buddhism is almost entirely internal. How you behave is how you behave. You'll bear the consequences, so there's no reason for me to judge you and no reason for me to set rules for you, or you for me.Judaism and Christianity both grew in a place where society was chaotic and fractured. The Jews didn't have a homeland, and the whole Old Testament is about them being in and out of slavery, battling other tribes, and establishing a home. Laying down the rules for a stable society that could last had to be pretty paramount for them, and it shows in their holy books. Christians were outcasts at first within the Roman empire, and outcasts from Judaism as well. They were a tiny minority, and again, establishing a society on their own terms was of great importance.By contrast, Buddhism grew primarily in India, Tibet, China, and Japan. All four were for the most part stable societies. China had a bureaucracy established, with civil service exams and all, by 5,000 BC (how crazy is that?). And in India, Hinduism was so well-established that its age can literally be measured in geological time. There's a temple built where the Ganges River flows out of the glacier that feeds it. But the temple is so old that the glacier has retreated more than 25 miles from the temple. So, as one writer put it, Hinduism (the world's oldest organized religion) is old enough to be measured in geological time. So all of these societies were well-established and mostly peaceful. There were periods of war, but they didn't threaten the very existence of the cultures as they did in the Mideast. So it was never important for Buddhism to lay down rules like "don't steal," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife" and so on. Society had already established all of those rules. Thus, Buddhism was able to concentrate more on internal development.Just a thought.

[checkymcfold]

SB, i don't know that i'd call the history of the far east "mostly peaceful," but i do think you're onto something with regard to the type of violence that existed there and its possible effects in terms of religious development in the area. while the middle east was often dealing with invaders from outside that brought in profoundly different types of cultural influences, the fighting in eastern asia was primarily feudalistic, both in japan and china (korea's a little different, since japan kinda made korea its bitch there for a while). india's a bit different in that regard, but hinduism was a fairly mature religion by the time the english came into the indian subcontinent.

[phlegm]

Human greed,like the serpent moving toward the eastern sun shall not have a pit to hiss in.

[speedz99]

Do you guys have any recommendations for finding somewhere to learn more about Buddhism? I like a lot of the ideas behind it, but wouldn't know where to start in terms of just showing up at a random temple. I found these three in my area...thoughts?http://www.manjushriinstitute.org/Khmer Temple...I can't find a site for this but it looks like part of http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/http://www.livingdharmacenter.org/

[checkymcfold]

speedz99, on Monday, February 4th, 2008, 3:48 PM, said:

Do you guys have any recommendations for finding somewhere to learn more about Buddhism? I like a lot of the ideas behind it, but wouldn't know where to start in terms of just showing up at a random temple. I found these three in my area...thoughts?http://www.manjushriinstitute.org/Khmer Temple...I can't find a site for this but it looks like part of http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/http://www.livingdharmacenter.org/

of the three links you gave, i've actually heard good things about the manjushri institute, i THINK, unless i'm mixing it up with something else. the second place i've never heard of, and the third appears to be somewhat new-agey on a purely aesthetic level, as would be the case for most western temples advertising themselves as "zen."as for becoming more acquainted with buddhism in general, it might be best to try to take an intro class at a local university just to get a good foundational understanding of the various sects and their differences. or if you have questions, go ahead and fire away in this thread--seems that we have a few knowledgeable people here.

[speedz99]

checkymcfold, on Monday, February 4th, 2008, 2:03 PM, said:

of the three links you gave, i've actually heard good things about the manjushri institute, i THINK, unless i'm mixing it up with something else. the second place i've never heard of, and the third appears to be somewhat new-agey on a purely aesthetic level, as would be the case for most western temples advertising themselves as "zen."

Cool, thank you.

checkymcfold, on Monday, February 4th, 2008, 2:03 PM, said:

as for becoming more acquainted with buddhism in general, it might be best to try to take an intro class at a local university just to get a good foundational understanding of the various sects and their differences. or if you have questions, go ahead and fire away in this thread--seems that we have a few knowledgeable people here.

Unfortunately, I'm already paying so much for school that I can't really afford to pay for another class. It definitely does seem like people here can answer questions, which I appreciate, but I'd also like to get something more personal to really feel it out.I've got a really stupid, basic question...so you go to your temple...what do you do there on any given day? Meditate? Talk about teachings? Whittle?

[timwakefield]

speedz99, on Monday, February 4th, 2008, 4:48 PM, said:

Do you guys have any recommendations for finding somewhere to learn more about Buddhism? I like a lot of the ideas behind it, but wouldn't know where to start in terms of just showing up at a random temple. I found these three in my area...thoughts?http://www.manjushriinstitute.org/Khmer Temple...I can't find a site for this but it looks like part of http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/http://www.livingdharmacenter.org/

My mom knows a lot about Buddhism in the Massachusetts area. I'll ask her for the name of some good temples or groups that are free (meditation classes/retreats cost moneys, but there are certainly temples where you can go practice/learn for free).

[speedz99]

timwakefield, on Monday, February 4th, 2008, 3:07 PM, said:

My mom knows a lot about Buddhism in the Massachusetts area. I'll ask her for the name of some good temples or groups that are free (meditation classes/retreats cost moneys, but there are certainly temples where you can go practice/learn for free).

Ok...so what does that mean? I understand a lot of the theories, just not how people practice, per say.edit: and thanks for asking

[Southern Buddhist]

So, Alec Baldwin, we meet again...(last time was in the "I want to try acid" thread).I got my introduction to Buddhism through reading about it, since I'm in the wilds of rural Virginia. The Manjushri Institute looks very cool, but also very traditional, with a lot of mandalas and gods/goddesses and other semi-supernatural things. If you're up for it, that's cool, but if you're looking for a more austere aesthetic, Zen is very stripped-down. It's purely a matter of what appeals to you most. My own practice is mostly solo, so it's more Victorian fixer-upper in aesthetic.I highly recommend picking up the magazines _Shambhala Sun_ and _Buddhadharma_. They're both excellent. Any book by Pema Chodron is great, and a really good starting point is Steve Hagen's _Buddhism Plain and Simple_. Clint Walker edited _Why Meditate?_, which includes chapters from many different Buddhist writers. That's a good place to start finding a sensibility you like. There's a little pocket-sized book published by Shambhala and edited by Jack Kornfeld called _Teachings of the Buddha_. That's a good place to get a lot of teachings culled from dozens of places all at once. Dating from way back in the '60s or '70s is Shunryu Suzuki's _Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind_. It's a classic. New this year is Lama Surya Das' _Buddha Is as Buddha Does_. Lastly (I broke this all up into paragraphs so it would be more like a list), two really good books that I have quoted from a lot in the book I'm currently writing are:_One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism_, Joseph Goldstein_The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way: A New Translation with a Guide to Reading the Text_, Glenn Wallis

[Southern Buddhist]

speedz99, on Monday, February 4th, 2008, 6:09 PM, said:

Ok...so what does that mean?edit: and thanks for asking

Mostly, it means meditation and listening to a teacher give a dharma talk, which is an explanation or thoughts on some particular point of Buddhist teaching.