59 replies to this topic

[Jordan]

Roberts2003, on Monday, April 23rd, 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

jesus, alright, i am NOT trying to start conflict or do brag posts. my god. i guess no one agrees with me that he can possibly have air here, and just assume he has me crushed. this is not a FREAKING brag post, and neither are my other ones. why is everyone so fu.cking bitter on this site. the next topic i start will be a standard normal post where i fold KK when the board is A 4 6. will everyone like that?????

i have hands like you've posted.it's a style thing really...best kept to yourself.you know why you do the things you do. Why do you care what we think?ive had hands where i've done the exact thing that opponent did with the nuts, and with air, but I dont post those hands, they don't really add much to strat...except...me showing a sick play, or sick read i made.I mean, you posted this hand, and got replies. Most of the time, you're beat here. Just cause you won this hand doesn't mean all that much. Great, I'm glad you won.I wouldn't post this hand, personally, for anything other reason to receive praise. Not cause I want to teach other people "strat" and how to call all ins with an underpair, even if the bet looks fishy. THat's just something you may do here and there, and you know why. It's hard to teach, or explain that to others...and really strategically is kinda pointless in my opinion.Anyways, i'm about to crash.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour]

This thread / OP reminds me of the type of person who cold calls down small pockets vs a big draw that busted, and then says something like "well i had a feeling, and look like i got the chips... so i must be doing something right"

[Roberts2003]

Naismith, on Monday, April 23rd, 2007, 11:03 PM, said:

Bro, it's not that he can't have air. Obviously, this hand proves that to be untrue. It's that the vast majority of the time, you're drawing to two outs. Let's say 90 percent of the time, you're drawing to two outs and ten percent of the time, he has six outs. Do you see how this isn't a profitable play?Also, do you understand that there's a world of difference between KK and 99 on an ace-high board? HE COULD BE BLUFFING WITH HANDS YOU'RE BEHIND!

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

[Jordan]

Royal_Tour, on Monday, April 23rd, 2007, 11:08 PM, said:

This thread / OP reminds me of the type of person who cold calls down small pockets vs a big draw that busted, and then says something like "well i had a feeling, and look like i got the chips... so i must be doing something right"

I mean...idk, this has got to be one of those rare spots to do this. God knows I've done and been wrong, and been right before...but I still don't think it validates a post in strat. It's a read based thing, and really hard to post your read with the table.This is like an extreme case...and I dont like to say there are absolutes in poker, and I won't here..but I think this is one of the more extreme hands where making this call is really quite volatile..cause to often he'll be "bluffing" with TT or something, and you've made a huuuge mistake...cause making these kind of calls are just usually not long-term winning decisions. but, whatever. what do i know.- Jordan

[Naismith]

Roberts2003, on Monday, April 23rd, 2007, 11:11 PM, said:

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

I have answered you. Jordan said the same thing. Someone who has seen you make your "big calls". Someone who thinks you have a hand like AT and will fold. Someone who thinks you have a hand like AQ and will call their AK. Someone who has a big hand but is playing above their means and doesn't want to get sucked out on. Someone who re-raised with, say, 66 and thinks you have a strong ace and knows you like to make hero calls.Essentially, anyone who pays attention will push on you with a big hand. What's the difference between pushing with TT-KK and pushing with 8-high? Both probably assume they're behind and want you to fold, right?

[DCJ001]

Roberts2003, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 3:11 AM, said:

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

Betting all in on the turn could be any hand. If you bet all in, and the other player folds, any hand wins. Calling all in requires a player to have the best hand.

[Jordan]

Roberts2003, on Monday, April 23rd, 2007, 11:11 PM, said:

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

you really don't need to argue this strategically. Any set shoves this turn, esp. if you cold call this flop. And moreso if they seen you make strange call downs. I'm not saying this was the case here, just saying this could happen.Or, people 'bluffing' with hands that are trying to push off weak aces. I agree an overbet is a weird bet to make, but that is not to say that this is never a big hand.I'd say just let this thread die dude. I'm done with it now, as I've made my points without being a jerk cause there really is not point in that. It's just not really a "strat" hand. Ok, so you took STRONG as being WEAK, fine...glad you went with it and worked out. Other than that, we gave you normal ranges...I hope you had reason to put his range as much different then all of ours and not just cause he shoveled.- Jordan

[Royal_Tour]

I think its safe to say that, the majority of the time, our opponent is investing 330 on this turn on a bluff to win 135?I mean, looks like he wants you out, but also looks like he thinks you'll call

[Zach6668]

DCJ001, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 2:48 AM, said:

What kind of a forum is it when a "so called" mod says:The op is looking for guidance and he gave his reasoning when he said:I question the preflop call with a mid pair. I usually call no more than 10% of an all in bet in the hopes of flopping a set. With no flopped set, the A on the flop, the C bet, and the likelihood that villain has an A or a bigger pair than 99, I would fold on the flop.If you knew that you were going to eventually call all in, a better play would have been to raise all in on the flop in the hopes that villain would lay down KK, QQ, etc.

The OP didn't give any reasoning. I asked a question to stimulate discussion, as I often do, with no one ever flipping out on me. If you read the other threads, my comments are justified. It's my responsibility to ensure that there is proper discussion going on in these forums, and I can ask someone to stop behaving like a d-bag when they have been.Nonetheless, he misinterpretted my question, and I believe I straightened it out when I said that I was merely looking for reasons why he called. As it's been backed up pretty clearly by most posters, as well as yourself, calling the flop is one of the worst plays, certainly, in NL, calling usually is a 3rd best option behind raising and folding.Anyways, I have no need to answer to you in a public forum if you dislike one comment I made. I make comments all of the time, if you have a problem with me, feel free to take it up with me privately.Cheers.- Zach

[Acid_Knight]

*Inhales deeply to say everything that he has to say in one breath...*So, I get to work this morning and decide to read every post in this thread. Yeah, I got problems.I agree with Jordan, Naismith etc when they say that many of your posts make you look kind of like a calling station. We are not saying that you are a calling station, but almost every hand that you posted has you making some "big" call which the majority of the forum feels is questionable. They also correctly point out that in most of the posts, you happen to miraculously have the best hand when all logic would suggest that you were dead in the water.The point of posting here is to learn something. After posting this hand and seeing the responses, your only thought (and it's nice if you admit it out loud) should be that "holy crap, I played this hand horribly and I can't beleve that I had the best hand..." You ask people to assign the villain a range and they do, almost the entirety of which, you are very far behind. You need to assign him a range too. What range do you assign him? Surely 78o isn't in that preflop or flop range. How does it magically appear in his range on the turn? IMO, because of the bet size here (unless he views you as a calling station - man, I've called you that a few times in this post, hmm) then he's not gonna bet that big with AA or KK preflop. His range I think includes all pairs 22-QQ, AT+, KJ+ QJ+ and of course, a few random hands thrown in there. When he bets the flop, the most logical thing to do is discount most of the big card hands and big pair hands. When he bets the turn, I'm throwing out the low pairs that aren't sets and the big card hands that didn't pick up a flush draw. You're in bad shape against that range. Very bad shape.I understand how to play SH and HU NL and I know that aggressive players 3-bet light. If you want to be profitable, you have to do that to keep people guessing. That being said, people 3-bet when they have real hands as well. Just because you think he's "looking to make a stand" doesn't mean that he didn't pick up ATo here and make a stand with it. He reraised preflop, bet the pot on the flop and went all-in on the turn. You're not winning here any percentage of the time that will make it even remotely profitable. Asserting that his most likely hand is a draw is ridiculous. You're playing the results becuase you got to see in the end that he had nothing. The only draw on the flop was 45 and some gutshots and backdoor flush draws. This is a 6-handed table, so while players are 3-betting light, they have to have some standards because there are a number of people at the table. He also reraised OOP, which shows more strength. After he bets and you call on the flop, it has to be fairly likely that he puts you on an A, so if he's still pushing on the turn, almost all of the time, he's gonna have an A that he thinks is better than yours. His bet interval preflop and everything about his hand says he has 2 big cards or a small to medium pair in the hole. As for him overbetting the pot on the turn, it's not really a big deal. The only other reasonable bet he could make would be more than half of his stack anyway, and if he thinks you have Ax and won't fold (a reasonable assumption considering you're calling him down with 99) then he made an excellent bet becuase he knew you'd pay it off.So, what can we learn here?1. Don't post hands if you're not looking for advice (I say this because you gallantly disagree with EVERYONE here about your bad play, so you weren't looking to hear what they had to say IMO)2. Follow the rules of the forum. It appears Zach has a temper and might do bad things to you.3. Don't get so defensive. Everyone plays hands poorly. You played this hand like an amateur who didn't want to lay down their one pair hand. Everyone does it, just don't try to make it out to be some genius play on your part when it really isn't.

[Acid_Knight]

Roberts2003, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 12:11 AM, said:

ok ok, that might be true on your last sentence.....but ok, lets say that is true....do ANY of those hands bet all in on the turn???? no, they dont. not at all. why would ANY hand bet all on on the turn???? please god somone answer me on the turn play and stop telling me how much i suck. my god. what hand bets all in on the turn???? what????? not 10 10 to KK thats for sure. someone answer me here logically, and i will respectfully listen to you.

If he can push with air, then he can certainly "bluff" you off of your ace with pairs TT to KK. This play really would be different if you held KK. That's the point we're all trying to make. You're obviously demonstrating that you don't need a huge hand to put your chips into the pot, so he can push a wider range of hands and expect to get paid off.Also, you're implying that the turn action seals the deal for you that confirms he's bluffing because you think he wouldn't overbet the pot with a monster, which myself and a few others disagree with, and you should see why considering your play thus far. If he bets half of his stack (a solid value bet) then that must mean that you're folding, right?

[Roberts2003]

Alright, I was pretty drunk last night and probably went overboard in my posting. Jordan, you are right for many reasons.Acid Night, on your last post, yes i would have folded if he had bet half his stack on the turn. Also, i feel if he has 10 10 to KK, he tries to get to show down, because he could have the best hand here.Some people are saying he would do this play with a huge hand because he knows i can call down light. Question is, How does he know that?? by reading the FCP No Limit section??? Point is, he would not know that.I think bigger issue here is how read dependent NL Hold Em is, and maybe my train of thought is just different then a lot of you. I guess I will try not to post such controversial hands in the future. and maybe some ones where i make folds haha.

[Zach6668]

Roberts2003, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 11:38 AM, said:

I think bigger issue here is how read dependent NL Hold Em is, and maybe my train of thought is just different then a lot of you. I guess I will try not to post such controversial hands in the future. and maybe some ones where i make folds haha.

This is a good point. NLHE is very hard to discuss in a message board. However, reads are not the end of it. You can't just say you read him for a straight draw, etc. As long as you can provide sound, logical reasons for your reads, then yes. That's the key, and that's what has really been debated in this post. You asked for a range, and we gave one, which puts you behind, but you still managed to make the call. I'm not critiquing your play. I don't play NL almost at all anymore, but I understand the game of poker, so my comments are merely to spawn discussion.Essentially, the key to NLHE message boards is providing reads, and having the ability to soundly defend them.FWIW, controversial hands are the best to post. The discussion in this thread has been great. Maybe a bit too swayed towards critiquing your overall play, but good discussion, nonetheless.- Zach

[Royal_Tour]

Acid_Knight, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 6:38 AM, said:

So, I get to work this morning

work is for suckers!

[Acid_Knight]

Royal_Tour, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 9:00 AM, said:

work is for suckers!

Hey, I make 70K a year at work. Also, I've never gone to work and lost money. Interesting eh?

[Royal_Tour]

Acid_Knight, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 11:28 AM, said:

Hey, I make 70K a year at work. Also, I've never gone to work and lost money. Interesting eh?

Ya, but when you're at work, you visit the forums, and I'm just guessing, but you probably think about poker a fair amount of the time, when you're not deep in thought.Now i ask you this, how many times have you thought about work while ur at the poker table? and how many times would you rather be at your work than at the table?

[mtdesmoines]

Royal_Tour, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 12:39 PM, said:

Ya, but when you're at work, you visit the forums, and I'm just guessing, but you probably think about poker a fair amount of the time, when you're not deep in thought.Now i ask you this, how many times have you thought about work while ur at the poker table? and how many times would you rather be at your work than at the table?

Surprisingly, I have brought work to the poker table. I can review things while folding my 8-2s and waiting for a table.

[Lavitz]

Roberts2003, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 7:38 AM, said:

Alright, I was pretty drunk last night and probably went overboard in my posting. Jordan, you are right for many reasons.Acid Night, on your last post, yes i would have folded if he had bet half his stack on the turn. Also, i feel if he has 10 10 to KK, he tries to get to show down, because he could have the best hand here.Some people are saying he would do this play with a huge hand because he knows i can call down light. Question is, How does he know that?? by reading the FCP No Limit section??? Point is, he would not know that.I think bigger issue here is how read dependent NL Hold Em is, and maybe my train of thought is just different then a lot of you. I guess I will try not to post such controversial hands in the future. and maybe some ones where i make folds haha.

Data mining? Playing with you previously? Plenty of ways. I have hundreds of hands against people I probably only played with once or twice and likewise people have the same for me. Someone who I played with once revealed they had 5,000 hands logged with me. Now I doubt he went looking through your hands (if he had any) but I'll reiterate that when you're beat you are drawing to two outs but when you are ahead he is drawing to at least 6. Also, you, like your oppponent, are risking 3X the pot to win the pot. 300+ dollars to win 100+ dollars with a medium pair. Not good poker IMO, unless you have a very strong read on opponent.As for bet sizing not "making sense", I really think this philosophy shouldn't lead you to stack off in this situation. Let him have the pot. You have a feeling he pushes and steals light? Well then I'm sure you can find a better instance then this. Really, you have no solid read other then he mixes it up a bit and you feel he "wants to make a stand" which doesn't seem very legitimate.

[Royal_Tour]

mtdesmoines, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 2:00 PM, said:

Surprisingly, I have brought work to the poker table. I can review things while folding my 8-2s and waiting for a table.

thats different, thats multi-tasking because you Have too, or at least, so you have more time to play... is my guessbut have u ever sat at a table playing and thought, man.. i wish i was at work righ tnow

[mtdesmoines]

Royal_Tour, on Tuesday, April 24th, 2007, 1:41 PM, said:

thats different, thats multi-tasking because you Have too, or at least, so you have more time to play... is my guessbut have u ever sat at a table playing and thought, man.. i wish i was at work righ tnow

Yes. There's a completely hot chick at work who's been chasing my *** down. I like coming to work.