more qq "ness" at $50 nl

[Jordan 1]

10 handed $50 NL at Betonbet (Pokerroom skin)I'm in MP2, folded to me, I raise to $1.75 -- which is my standard raise first in.I have Q Q -- $48Folds to BB who calls -- $56.Reads: BB is nothing special. I have a few notes, but otherwise, I have nothing telling me to "beware".FLOP :: 3 8 2 BB bets $3, I call $3TURN :: 4 BB bets All In ($~51), I call.RIVER :: 6 Just more QQ'ness at low NLHE.- Jordan

[Blink20 0]

wowyou call that?I guess im just a wuss

[allinbluff35 0]

heh, i might get bored enough to call that also.

[ICrushHomeGames 0]

awful flop call, very loose turn call

[petersun 0]

I would call, his overbet seems fishy.

[jayistheman 0]

I would call, his overbet seems fishy.

its that line of thought that pays my tuition...but, to the OP... I'd probably raise the flop

[petersun 0]

I would call, his overbet seems fishy.

its that line of thought that pays my tuition...but, to the OP... I'd probably raise the flop

:-) You wouldn't get $40-something out of me. I'm a greedy bastard who hates not knowing where he stands. I, personally, woulda raised on the flop as you suggested (cause I would figure I'm good on the flop and I want to get rid of the flush draw). My comment was specifically on this particular situation our friend got himself into. Given where he is on the turn with no information about the villian, and the bad overplay I often see at the 50NL on Pokerroom, I'd call. The only hands we're drawing dead on are A5 and 56.Against trips AA, and KK, we're a dog, but there are still 2 Qs out there.But most likely he's pushing his draw on a bluff (less and less likely, now that I think of it) or he's got exactly what we have, an overpair. I'd put my overpair against his any day.

[Jordan 1]

awful flop call, very loose turn call

Why?Oh, first let me guess...In a heads up pot, a lead bet obviously means ...A) a flush draw and I need to raise right away to push him offB) a str8 draw...as aboveC) a pair + a draw as aboveAs for the turn, you have got to be kidding me, right?- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

I would call, his overbet seems fishy.

its that line of thought that pays my tuition...but, to the OP... I'd probably raise the flop

Why?- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

wowyou call that?I guess im just a wuss

Why would you not call this?Give me some reasons...other than he bet all in.Cause guys, come on...strong = weak and weak = strong the majority of the time.We do agree on this, right?- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

heh, i might get bored enough to call that also.

I don't really think that makes much sense, but hey...sure.Are most of you just folding cause he way overbet the pot and we don't have too much put in?I really don't see a fold on this turn the majority of the time at the $50 NL without a solid read telling you to.As I've said before....strong = weak and weak = strong.Do we agree on this tell...the majority of the time?- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

I would call, his overbet seems fishy.

its that line of thought that pays my tuition...but, to the OP... I'd probably raise the flop

:-) You wouldn't get $40-something out of me. I'm a greedy censored who hates not knowing where he stands. I, personally, woulda raised on the flop as you suggested (cause I would figure I'm good on the flop and I want to get rid of the flush draw). My comment was specifically on this particular situation our friend got himself into. Given where he is on the turn with no information about the villian, and the bad overplay I often see at the 50NL on Pokerroom, I'd call. The only hands we're drawing dead on are A5 and 56.Against trips AA, and KK, we're a dog, but there are still 2 Qs out there.But most likely he's pushing his draw on a bluff (less and less likely, now that I think of it) or he's got exactly what we have, an overpair. I'd put my overpair against his any day.

Why do I need to raise for information on this relatively safe flop (when the pot is heads up)? Shouldn't his lead bet of near pot size start giving me an idea of what he has. If I can determine this, I see no harm is smooth calling and re-evaluating on the turn. And hopefully getting the villian to put in more money when we believe we are ahead.If he really is weak I would imagine he'd lead into me here and see how I acted. Instead of just pushing blindly on the turn...which just screams weakness, in my opinon, the vast majority of the time at these stake tables.When I called (on the flop) I was praying that no A or K would fall, not because I was afraid of those cards, but I was sure that if one did he would quit on the hand cause he would think I hit an overcard.As for your other comments, I really didn't put AA or KK in the situation. If so, it was a gutsy/advanced play of his thinking that I'd pay it off on the turn. But honestly, with that strong of hand most people are going to re-pop me preflop...or try and c/r me atleast once on the flop or turn.But most likely he's pushing his draw on a bluff On the turn, when he moved in I thought this was more likely than having a really strong hand he was confident in. Otherwise I would have expected a c/r or smaller sized bet which would be aimed at getting me to call, rather than for me to fold.Do we really "have" to automatically put our opponent on a flush draw, or any draw, when he leads into us? And as a result, when he leads, auto-raise? And I'm specifically speaking about Head Up pots that do have a preflop raise before us.I'll tell you know that I don't.- Jordan

[pokerplayer24 0]

Personally i'm raising this flop not to protect my hand but because the flop is the place best to get $ out of your opponent when the board is low and coordinated. If he has a flush draw he'll be willing to call a big raise on the flop but not on the turn. If he has 8x he'll be a lot more likely to put $ in on the flop then on the turn if you raise him if an overcard hits. At the same time if you can expect your opponent to just push all in on the turn with a hand weaker then a pair of queens then their is no reason to ever take the lead since the player is so overagressive.To say the turn is an auto call would be pretty unreasonable. Its 40$ for you into what is a 10$ pot. Honestly I'd struggle to call this unless i'd seen it out of this player before.Overal I see the merits of the way you played the hand just I think against players at 50 nl if you raise this flop they aren't folding top pair or a draw anyway. So i'd rather make them put $ in on the flop when they are most confident with their hand then wait till the turn when a draw or pair is devalued and possibly be stuck making a difficult call if the player bets big.

[Jordan 1]

Personally i'm raising this flop not to protect my hand but because the flop is the place best to get $ out of your opponent when the board is low and coordinated.  If he has a flush draw he'll be willing to call a big raise on the flop but not on the turn.  If he has 8x he'll be a lot more likely to put $ in on the flop then on the turn if you raise him if an overcard hits.  At the same time if  you can expect your opponent to just push all in on the turn with a hand weaker then a pair of queens then their is no reason to ever take the lead since the player is so overagressive.To say the turn is an auto call would be pretty unreasonable.  Its 40$ for you into what is a 10$ pot.  Honestly I'd struggle to call this unless i'd seen it out of this player before.Overal I see the merits of the way you played the hand just I think against players at 50 nl if you raise this flop they aren't folding top pair or a draw anyway.  So i'd rather make them put $ in on the flop when they are most confident with their hand then wait till the turn when a draw or pair is devalued and possibly be stuck making a difficult call if the player bets big.

I like this response.And is agreeable. Thanks for writing out something instead of just saying, "raise flop", "fold turn".-- So i'd rather make them put $ in on the flop when they are most confident with their hand then wait till the turn when a draw or pair is devalued and possibly be stuck making a difficult call if the player bets bigFair enough. Are you against smooth calling the flop and then betting the non spade turn aggresively if he checks to you. We let him "draw for free" on the flop by letting him name his price, but now on the turn we can set the price and correctly bet him outta the pot.Lets say he does have a pair + flush draw on this flop and leads at us (correctly) and then we raise with our over pair...if he comes over the top of me now then I'm folding the flop. But, if we get him on the turn when he is the underdog and less aggressive with his lead bet, we can get him outta the hand, or get him to incorrectly put more money into the pot.-- To say the turn is an auto call would be pretty unreasonable. Its 40$ for you into what is a 10$ pot. Honestly I'd struggle to call this unless i'd seen it out of this player before.If I came across as "an auto call" that is my mistake. I don't think anything is "auto" in no limit which is why I post some hands like these where I don't do the "auto move". The reason I do believe though the majority of the time we need to call here is because of the common tell of many novice players. Strong = weak. Weak = strong.Would you not agree that his strong over bet of the pot would be a very brave, advanced play if he did have a set or KK/AA. I personally do. At this level, with most opponents skill levels in a similar area, I really don't expect to be played at in such fashion against a very strong hand. I expect more of a trapping type play they see on tv in a tournament style setting.I expect to atleast be tried to be fooled into getting either c/r or call small bets to pull me into the pot.--At the same time if you can expect your opponent to just push all in on the turn with a hand weaker then a pair of queens then their is no reason to ever take the lead since the player is so overagressive.I didn't know what to expect from him on the turn. I called on the flop wanting to see his action on the turn. I had position. I had an overpair. I was in a great position to -- if I wanted to -- try and get more value with my overpair than A) make a choice to gamble on the flop or B) define my hand on the flop for him and then get him to fold if he read me correctly.I opted to go for more value this time.I don't play JJ QQ KK AA everytime like this, but I do think there are times where we should. I don't mean calling all in bets on the turn, but rather slowing down on the flop and/or turn and trying to get more value outta our hand. Rather than trying to almost over protect our hand against an opponent who very well may be drawing quite slim against our over pair.My goal on this hand was if possible to extract the maximum with him holding the lead for as long as he wanted, and then I'd put the hammer down. --Again, thanks for your more thoughtout reply. I'm posting some of my QQ KK AA hands like this just to suggest a way that I think does have better value than always fast playing our big hands.especially in these small HU pots that so often go without making much $$.Granted winning a small pot is better than losing a big one. I play to make $$ and I'm trying my best to mix up my game with my big pairs and weak hands alike.- Jordan

[theredpill99 0]

Jordan, you can't just say that BB bet All-in $47 on the turn or whatever. YOu have to tell us what kind of player he is and what is poker tracker stats are. That makes all the difference here. Anyway, I raise the flop to $10 and probably fold to an all-in on the turn. You can't pay off sets with overpairs. You just can't.

[looshle 6]

Jordan,  you can't just say that BB bet All-in $47 on the turn or whatever.   YOu have to tell us what kind of player he is and what is poker tracker stats are.   That makes all the difference here.    Anyway,   I raise the flop to $10 and probably fold to an all-in on the turn.   You can't pay off sets with overpairs.   You just can't.

Of course you can, this statement is rediculous. Anytime you raise big preflop, I'm putting you all in on a board full of low cards so you can throw your AA or KK face up and say I'm not paying off your set.

[theredpill99 0]

I fold AA and KK to big resistance. I save a lot of money that way.

[Petoria 0]

I try to leave myself with easy decisions. Easy decisions make money. The obvious play so that you have an easy decision is to raise the flop. On the turn, you've let him take the lead, and he could be pushing with anything as low as AK high or as high as a set. It's a guessing game. I know the "weak=strong/strong=weak" may apply, but you dont have enough information on your opponent to let him have the lead like this. Raising the flop to $8-$10 is ideal, and, if called, throw out a $12 bet on the turn. Check the river behind him, and fold if he comes over the top at any point.IMO, he has TT or 99, but you could figure that out on the flop if you had raised.

[econ_tim 0]

Cause guys, come on...strong = weak and weak = strong the majority of the time.

I thought that strong/weak thing was for physical tells.Regarding the flop, you are not just protecting against flush and straight draws, but those annoying overcards Aces and Kings.

[petersun 0]

I would call' date=' his overbet seems fishy.[/quote']Why do I need to raise for information on this relatively safe flop (when the pot is heads up)? Shouldn't his lead bet of near pot size start giving me an idea of what he has. If I can determine this' date=' I see no harm is smooth calling and re-evaluating on the turn. And hopefully getting the villian to put in more money when we believe we are ahead.- Jordan[/quote']Well, as I said earlier in my first post, I suspect it's a bluff and things seem fishy. Perhaps he feared the draws. But then at the end of the 2nd post I concluded that he prbably has an overpair to 8. So like TTs.As I said, my primary reason for reraising on the flop because I'm greedy. Getting information is an additional bonus of reraising, but not a primary. I like having the last word on aggression in this case.I don't assume he has a flush draw, but there is an above average number of flush drawers on Pokerroom. So I always consider that possibility.But I don't fault your call on the flop. Just saying what I would do and that I would call on the turn as well.

[Jordan 1]

Cause guys, come on...strong = weak and weak = strong the majority of the time.

I thought that strong/weak thing was for physical tells.Regarding the flop, you are not just protecting against flush and straight draws, but those annoying overcards Aces and Kings.

Yes it is. But I also use it for betting patterns in NL games.So, in general, a strong overbet of the pot, usually is betting strong when weak.What, maybe 6 outs to an ace or king? Why do I need to protect my hand (every time) in these small HU pots. Do we not want him taking the lead and putting money in when he may actually be drawing much slimmer than a flush draw, or straight draw.In these HU pots I usually put my opponent on a pair they are "trying to protect themselves" against the draw they may think I have. Thus, when a perfect blank falls on the turn, as in this hand, he thinks, "Oh, he is drawing to a flush since he smooth called me on the flop, I better push hard." He's obviously going to be wrong and putting in more money when he himself is the one drawing to 5 outs (if he only has a pair plus his kicker) and I give myself the ability to make much more $$$.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

Jordan, you can't just say that BB bet All-in $47 on the turn or whatever. YOu have to tell us what kind of player he is and what is poker tracker stats are. That makes all the difference here. Anyway, I raise the flop to $10 and probably fold to an all-in on the turn. You can't pay off sets with overpairs. You just can't.

I don't use Poker Tracker. I use notes that I take myself after about every hand possible. I actually think I get better reads this way. but yea, having actual numbers would be nice. I just don't it.Do you really think he'd bet his set this hard on the turn? An all in is way overdoing it.Just because he moves in you think he has a set? I don't get it.I am much more careful with my overpairs in multi way pots and when the action is much more check/call, then check/raise turn...etc..not two back to back leads. As I've said before, if he lead twice into me with a set I would be very surprised and quickly label him one of the few good players I find at this level.I really think it's wrong that some of you are just assuming he has us beat cause he is willing to bet his entire stack.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

I try to leave myself with easy decisions. Easy decisions make money. The obvious play so that you have an easy decision is to raise the flop. On the turn, you've let him take the lead, and he could be pushing with anything as low as AK high or as high as a set. It's a guessing game. I know the "weak=strong/strong=weak" may apply, but you dont have enough information on your opponent to let him have the lead like this. Raising the flop to $8-$10 is ideal, and, if called, throw out a $12 bet on the turn. Check the river behind him, and fold if he comes over the top at any point.IMO, he has TT or 99, but you could figure that out on the flop if you had raised.

I agree. Raising the flop is def. neccesary if multi way. But in this HU pot, I really don't have to everytime. We can't just assume that our villian has a big draw on us everytime. I really think some of you need to analize your play in these smalls pots. I think there is more money to be made, extracted, than just fast playing these HU Pots everytime.For what it's worth. If I raised the flop to say $10 and he calls, and then on the turn I only bet $12 on a blank, I'd expect to be raised by most NL players cause that bet would be weak.I'm a believer in betting 3/4 to pot size bets in most hands. That way it keeps my opponents guessing on every pot I enter.IMO, he has TT or 99, but you could figure that out on the flop if you had raisedMaybe. But also, he may figure out I have an overpair, or maybe even willing to put me on a flush draw with two overs and then fold. But if we can just get past the fact that we have to raise this HU POT to get information and be willing to let him lead when he may only be drawing to 5 outs...well, we will be really getting more value out of our Over Pairs over time.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

I fold AA and KK to big resistance. I save a lot of money that way.

I've read a lot of your hands that frankly, just don't make much sense. I'm not ragging you at all.I really think I've been respectful of you and geniunely tried to help you here (where I can) and on your blog by not giving you shit.Not saying that you always do, but I think folding QQ KK AA in these HU pots to "big resistance" is actually more often times a mistake than a "good lay down".Granted there are times when it is def. right to lay down, but I just don't see how or why so many of you are thinking we should be folding this turn.- Jordan

[Abbaddabba 0]

His flop bets suggests that he has a piece of it, but nothing big and he wants to find out if you have an overpair on the flop.By just calling, you're representing strong overcards.When the turn is an apparent brick, he would probably see it as confirmation that he's ahead. If that's true, his mentality may very well be to bet you out of the pot so you dont 'draw out on him'.With that in mind, i still dont like the call without a read of 'maniac'.