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Hand Vs Isaac Haxton


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Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?

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Stack sizes @ moment of hand?i would play that hand little bit more careful. theres a good possibility that he had higher flush draw, K in his hand (some kind of KT, KQ...) or less likely flopped set. i would call flop and see what happens.

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To my eye you look like a dummy for that call but then again you're the pro and you also had immediate and long term history with him to go off of and it was probably actually genius and correct for all I know.

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I love ya, man.... but it looks like a bad play to me... like others have said... how could you be ahead of anything but a really weak bluff. But then, you're playing in the 25K tournament and I'm playing in 25 dollar on-line sit-n-go's.... so what do I know.

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Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?
i think pocket AA with no diamond
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From an amateur's perspective it seemed loose. I don't know Isaac but I'm not sure what you put him on. So many hands have you in bad shape:- higher pocket pair- Kx- Two high cards with at least one diamond- low suited diamond connectors- pocket 4's or pocket 2'sThree betting him pre flop wold have helped narrow down his hand.

Key hand I played today in the 25k high roller. I'll give you the details, you can discuss, then I'll chime in with my thought process: Isaac raised to 2900 from the cutoff and I called from the BB with red 88 (Blinds 600-1200 w 200 ante). The flop comes K 4 2 all diamonds. I check, he bet 5500, I make it 12,000, he goes all in for 22,000 more. I call. I'll add what happened next sometime tomorrow. Anyway, what do you think of the way I played the hand?
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I would have played differently since i don't find interesting to play post-flop oop vs Isaac Haxton. So I think I'd do the 3-bet and think to call or not whether he moves in ~25bbs. I'd have to know how much chips remaining i'll have if a lost to make that decision. But if i call pre-flop, so i never will raise him on this flop. Just because i can't call his all-in for ~22bb. He could have many flushdraws A-high, some K (K8+), some flushs (QJs, SCdiamonds), some steals that turn into monster hands (42, K2, K4), some PP better than the Eights (9d9, TdT, JdJ of course he can always have 7d7, 6d6) I mean, most of the time he is ahead, most of the time we have the low equity or is a flip 50%-50%, and sometimes we are drawing to a miracle. Ok, part of the time he is in a bad shape like when he hold 7d7. But, again, isn't interesting play 22bb against this wider range.So, i think fold is more Ev than call.If i have some tell of him or was big stack, i can call... in fact, even big-stack i prefer raise all in to pass the difficult decision for him.

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A lot of you are focusing on DNs call of the shove, and not liking that. That's an autocall I think. There's 55ish grand in the middle and only 22K to call. He's most likely in a near coin flip at that point, as the only holdings that have him in jail are flopped flushes, a PP higher than 8s with a diamond and a King with a diamond kicker higher than Daniels' 8. That's a real small part of Isaacs range.Most spots I'd guess he's up against a King no diamond, or the ace of diamonds. Daniel probably already knows he's calling a shove before he checkraises.The only plays that I think are worth comment on are whether you'd reraise preflop, or just call the flop rather than reraise.I'd probably just call the flop, because I'm nittier than the average bear. I see the reraise though, because of what I said above plus Isaac is probably raising/c betting wide from the cutoff, and with Isaccs 30BB stack size Daniel probably gets some folds and wins the pot right there. Also probably better than just calling in case Isaac just cbet with garbage, but that garbage connects with a cheap turn or free river card.I'd like to know Daniels stack size here, as I'd be more likely to make this play if I was considerably deeper than opponents 30BB.

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A lot of you are focusing on DNs call of the shove, and not liking that. That's an autocall I think. There's 55ish grand in the middle and only 22K to call. He's most likely in a near coin flip at that point, as the only holdings that have him in jail are flopped flushes, and a King with a diamond kicker higher than Daniels' 8. That's a real small part of Isaacs range.Most spots I'd guess he's up against a King no diamond, or the ace of diamonds. Daniel probably already knows he's calling a shove before he checkraises.The only plays that I think are worth comment on are whether you'd reraise preflop, or just call the flop rather than reraise.I'd probably just call the flop, because I'm nittier than the average bear. I see the reraise though, because of what I said above plus Isaac is probably raising/c betting wide from the cutoff, and with Isaccs 30BB stack size Daniel probably gets a fold and wins the pot right there. Also probably better than just calling in case Isaac just cbet with garbage, but that garbage connects with a cheap turn or free river card.I'd like to know Daniels stack size here, as I'd be more likely to make this play if I was considerably deeper than opponents 30BB.
And 99-QQ, AA with a diamond which are all realistic possibilities. Based on what's given Ike has ~37k to start the hand so ~30BB. I'd much rather 3 bet preflop / decide if 4 bet than played as was pre. His range of getting it in on the flop is clearly ahead of yours but you're still committed once you raise the flop. I would prefer finding a way to close the action with a shove instead of calling it off on the flop. That would either be leading into him and 3 bet shoving if he raises or simply jamming his flop bet.
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And 99-QQ, AA with a diamond which are all realistic possibilities. Based on what's given Ike has ~37k to start the hand so ~30BB. I'd much rather 3 bet preflop / decide if 4 bet than played as was pre. His range of getting it in on the flop is clearly ahead of yours but you're still committed once you raise the flop. I would prefer finding a way to close the action with a shove instead of calling it off on the flop. That would either be leading into him and 3 bet shoving if he raises or simply jamming his flop bet.
correctfixed my post tyTo your post, I disagree with jamming over the flop bet. In that spot he's getting called by a worse range than is shoving over his checkraise. He's folding the bottom part of his range and calling with the top of his range.
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I guess it all comes down to his image...with his repop I would put him on ace king with the ace of diamonds but the way the hand played he was c-betting most of the time so your bet on flop would be the play and you are pot commuted after that

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Hey Daniel,Just registered today when I saw this hand. Looking forward to checking out the forums. Sorry in advance - I tend to talk too much when it comes to strategy, so this probably will end up longer than it needs to be. Here are my opinions-Preflop:This seems somewhat close between calling and shoving, but I would rather shove. Looks like effective stacks were around 39k to start the hand. This is important, as is who covers whom and by how much.Assuming this is 9 handed, there's 6500 in the pot before calling his raise. You're a little bit deeper than I generally like to shove (though I think many of these hot-shot young kid tourney pros would disagree), but I think this is a good spot for it. Ike will be opening very very wide here, especially if he perceives the button and sb as weaker/tighter players. Did he? He'd open less frequently if there were a tough player on the button or in the sb with between 15 and 25k. Was there? His stack matters too, but not as much for how often he opens. I wouldn't be shocked to see him open 100% in this spot, given the right players and stacks involved. I would be shocked if he opened less than 50% of hands, unless there were a very active short stack behind him.Anyways, I didn't run the math, but I'm positive it would show shoving to be very +EV (which means much better than folding). I'd be happy to run through it, by the way, if anyone would like. That's not the whole story, since calling is certainly better than folding too.Analyzing the value of a call is hard. I don't have a method to get an accurate estimate (I haven't tried very hard, since it matters very little in cash games). Calling 88 against Ike's wide range with all the money already in the pot is clearly +EV (compared to folding). I'm just guessing it's less +EV than shoving.Ike is extremely smart and tough, which is even worse for you than extremely smart and less tough, since that type of player would let you get to showdown more easily. You're out of position- regardless of where you rate your postflop skill level vs. Ike's, as long as it's somewhere in the ballpark, you have to agree that position is powerful enough to ensure that he'll have a "postflop advantage" - another thing difficult to assign real $ value to.You have the kind of hand that rarely flops something that you want to get all-in with against his value range, and often flops something that you'd like to take to showdown cheaply, or perhaps to protectAgainst a weak player, I would always call. They'd often let you get to showdown cheaply, and you can out-read and out-manouver them, generating lots of extra EV. (A weaker player would also often have a tighter preflop range, making a shove preflop less profitable)One final consideration: If we somehow knew that the EV of calling and the EV of shoving were the same (in terms of chips), it would still be better to shove. Assuming you don't have 4x his stack or more (in which case you can ignore this), there is value in preserving your tournament life, or the majority of your stack. Our EV comes in different ways, depending on if we call or shove.-If we shove, the overwhelming majority of the time, we pick up 6500 chips. A very small % of the time, we get all in with maybe slightly over 40% equity on average. -If we call, we are much more likely to get stacks in, or to get a sizable part of our stack in before folding or before he folds. This (counterintuitively to some) increases our variance compared to shoving preflop, which is especially bad in tournaments.I think it was Sklansky (your fave) that showed that the value of each chip you gain in a tournament is less than the value of each chip you lose... or something like that. Point being, it's important to minimize variance, and to avoid coinflips for your stack or large parts of it... even more important if you have a decent skill advantage over the field.*It's also an option to 3bet to a smaller amount than all-in. This makes you and your ranges tougher, but I think works out poorly given tournament life considerations. I'm not sure how often Ike calls, or if he'd only shove or fold. I think it makes more sense, and is much easier, to shove hands like 88, A5s, and AQo and to 3bet smaller with air and hands like JJ+.Flop:I love the way you played the flop, and it's something I don't do enough of in tournaments. My instinctive reaction is to call and figure it out later, but I think your play is so much better. I'm not sure if it's for the same reasons I like it or not (or if it was based on some very cool reads), but I'd rather hear your thought process than get into mine.Nice hand.-Phil

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Hey Daniel,Just registered today when I saw this hand. Looking forward to checking out the forums. Sorry in advance - I tend to talk too much when it comes to strategy, so this probably will end up longer than it needs to be. Here are my opinions-
Not possible Phil, the more the betterWelcome to the forum
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Interested to see how the hand played out.My first reaction was it looked like the sort of call I would make as I donk my way out of a sit and go.And most of the comments seem to think it wasn't a great play.But then Phil Galfond (and I assume Daniel) seem to think it was a great play.I guess that's why they're playing Super High Roller events and I'm still donking my way out of Sit and Goes :club:

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Preflop:This seems somewhat close between calling and shoving, but I would rather shove.
Wait what? I've got stacks at 36.9k effective. You're advocating shoving 30bb effective over a 2.4bb open? Sure, a shove is slightly +EV vs his opening range, but a 3bet to a bit over 10k is clearly better.
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*It's also an option to 3bet to a smaller amount than all-in. This makes you and your ranges tougher, but I think works out poorly given tournament life considerations. I'm not sure how often Ike calls, or if he'd only shove or fold. I think it makes more sense, and is much easier, to shove hands like 88, A5s, and AQo and to 3bet smaller with air and hands like JJ+.
The way I read the hand, it seemed like Daniel had Ike covered. Doesn't that make 3-betting better as you could effectively leverage his stack as he'd be less likely to call for the reasons you described? I also don't quite understand shoving for ~30bb with the TT-88, A5s, AQo range. I guess if you assume that Ike has Daniel covered and that he could call a fair bit, you're willing to define your range to prevent him from out playing you in position? In the case where Daniel has Ike covered, it seems like adding these mid-strength hands to your three betting range is better because it would let you 3-bet wider, no?
I love the way you played the flop, and it's something I don't do enough of in tournaments. My instinctive reaction is to call and figure it out later, but I think your play is so much better. I'm not sure if it's for the same reasons I like it or not (or if it was based on some very cool reads), but I'd rather hear your thought process than get into mine.
I'm also curious to hear Daniel's explanation here. When you say this is something you don't do enough of do you mean raising in general or this size raise in particular. I don't understand the sizing, especially with the hand he has, it seems like shoving would have been better. Although I do agree, that this is a spot where calling feels more natural but is a lot worse than raising. I guess with the smaller raise you can do this a very high % of the time and expect that he folds quite a bit and if you're going to do it a lot you need all the value hands you can get. Actually seems kinda similar to the pre-flop situation in that way...
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Hey Phil. Apparently we had the same idea.I didn't think to calculate the EV of a shove pre-flop because in my opinion 30bb is too many chips to flip. But I agree with you that he has a very wide range and therefore most of the time He Folds and we take the pot right away. The small % of the time that he paid our equity against all calling-range is somewhere around 40%. But, i always prefer the 3-bet. Give some infos about his hand and we have the control of the action if he calls.Play Post-flop is really difficult to me take the better decision against Ike, so I 'll never raise his c-bet. If i was sitting on the big blind and had paid: I'd go all in, checking/move-in or fold. I'll never call in this spot just because this changes nothing... if i hit the flush and he has a better flush ok he will win my whole stack. So for me: move in or fold.Of course whether i'm Daniel Negreanu, with your reading and post-flop skill, ck/raise is very very creative and thought. I like too. (Sorry for my bad and repetitive english)

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I'm not liking this at all. If you're going to take this approach on a flop like this why not just shove pre-flop when you have real fold equity? You're dominated by any K with a diamond kicker better than an 8, a huge dog to any two diamonds higher than an 8, a significant dog to any flush, and against any KX you're a slight (8 or under) to huge dog (8 or better) to any non-diamond kicker. Again post flop if you're taking this stand why not just shove the flop out of position? Again with fold equity. Anyway I would never in a million years play this hand the way you did. I probably shove pre-flop to the cut off raise if he's aggressive and hope for a fold or a coin flip. Of course I have almost no real poker accomplishments whatsoever - so on that note I'm waiting to hear your explanation.

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Wait what? I've got stacks at 36.9k effective. You're advocating shoving 30bb effective over a 2.4bb open? Sure, a shove is slightly +EV vs his opening range, but a 3bet to a bit over 10k is clearly better.
I think shoving is much more than slightly +EV. If there were no antes, I'd think we were too deep, but there's enough money in the pot that I feel fine shoving this much in to take it down.If your argument is that 3betting to 10k with this hand is better for our overall game, and for the times we want to 3bet bluff, I'd tend to agree. I would be surprised if it's much better with our specific hand, especially because the value of stack preservation in tourneys. If Daniel started the hand with a massive stack, I'd like 3betting smaller much much more.All that said, I think 3betting smaller is a perfectly good option. My guess is it's barely worse than shoving, and I prefer it to calling against a tough player.Actually, one major benefit to 3betting smaller is that we get the money in against all pairs, whereas when we shove, we can expect him to fold most worse pairs, I think. Still though, small pairs are such a small part of his range that I still prefer shoving to 3betting small and giving a tough player very good pot odds to call and gamble with my medium strength hand.
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Thats a really bold re raise i say he had kings!3 kingsThere no way someones going to do that with a straight draw against you.You know when it comes out and i know that you know!Lol your awesome daniel!!!!

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