DanielNegreanu 141 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 You are playing $100-$200 blind Pot Limit Omaha and come in raising to $600 with 3 4 5 8 A very tight player re-raised the pot, making it $2100 to go and only had $1100 left. Now, another tight player goes all in for a total of $3600. You have to call $3000 more in what will most certainly be a three way pot. What would you do? Link to post Share on other sites
gilbertology 0 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 You are getting pot odds, therefore you should call. Tight player might have aces or kings. Since the other guy will also make the call and be all-in you don't have to worry about him going all-in on the flop costing you more to draw to a possible straight or flush. Your hand doesn't contain any high cards, while the other two probly do so you're getting the odds preflop. Also no hand is a huge favorite in Omaha even AAKK vs 275J Link to post Share on other sites
jayboogie 0 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I would call given the description of my 2 opponents being very tight, which means they likely have AAXX and KKXX type hands. My hand fares well against these types of hands and stands to win enough to warrant calling given the pot odds. Link to post Share on other sites
gilbertology 0 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 ok some quick calculations. Blinds=$300+your $600+$3600+$3200=$7700 in the pot and $3000 for you to play. You need a 28.04% chance to win to make the call profitable. Will you have those odds? most likely, although if the two have your flush draws dominated you could be in some trouble. If someone has an Omaha calculator run our hand against AAJ9 and QQAK random suits and see what the percentages are. Link to post Share on other sites
MrNiceGuy 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I voted call, even against KsTsKdQh and AcJcAd9d you have 29.5% chance to win.But, if a couple of loose players folded before the action started (such that it's likely that they held low cards), then I might be inclined to fold, since there's now reason to suspect that my hand is likely to be more dead than I might normally expect. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I think we need to count both stacks all-in for our calculations. We can't tell if the blinds are one of the raisers, but we'll assume not.Our pot odds in the main pot are:(600 + 3300 x 2 + 300) / 2700 = 7500/2700 = 2.8:1 or 1/3.8 = 27%twodimes cruncher gives us some numbers. With the assumption that the two raisers have all broadway cards, we're right around 27% if our suits are dominated. We're basically free-rolling on the possibility of having a live suit. This is a call. pokenum -mc 500000 -o 8s 5s 4c 3c - as js ts ac - ad kd ah qh Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV8s 5s 4c 3c 197190 39.44 302810 60.56 0 0.00 0.394As Js Ts Ac 78908 15.78 343318 68.66 77774 15.55 0.236Ad Kd Ah Qh 146128 29.23 276098 55.22 77774 15.55 0.370pokenum -mc 500000 -o 3c 4c 5s 8s - ac ts as jc - ad kd ah qh Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV8s 5s 4c 3c 157337 31.47 342663 68.53 0 0.00 0.315As Ts Ac Jc 117973 23.59 304063 60.81 77964 15.59 0.314Ad Kd Ah Qh 146726 29.35 275310 55.06 77964 15.59 0.371pokenum -mc 500000 -o 3c 4c 5s 8s - as ts ac jc - ad kh qh qd Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV8s 5s 4c 3c 136119 27.22 363881 72.78 0 0.00 0.272As Ts Ac Jc 184201 36.84 315042 63.01 757 0.15 0.369Ad Qd Kh Qh 178923 35.78 320320 64.06 757 0.15 0.359pokenum -mc 500000 -o 8s 5s 4c 3c - as th ac jc - ad kd ah qh Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV8s 5s 4c 3c 198316 39.66 301684 60.34 0 0.00 0.397As Ac Jc Th 89430 17.89 332497 66.50 78073 15.61 0.257Ad Kd Ah Qh 134181 26.84 287746 57.55 78073 15.61 0.346 You are playing $100-$200 blind Pot Limit Omaha and come in raising to $600 with 3 4 5 8 I personally wouldn't raise with that in full ring with the gaps at the top. I'd hold out for 3 6 7 8 .P.S., I am weak-tight.Edit: Cocked up the math the first time. Gilbertology is wise. Link to post Share on other sites
gilbertology 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I also screwed up the math by $100, unless Daniel edited his op to trick me. It's fixed now, odds we need are 28.04% instead of 28.3%, that extra $100 could be the difference between a call and a fold Link to post Share on other sites
Canada 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Given preflop advantages are a lot smaller in Omaha pot odds would dictate a call. Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 CallIf both opponents are very tight/tight then one probably has AAxx while the other one has a good chance of having a broadway type hand. It's likely that our straight/low card outs are clean plus we're doublesuited which gives us a better chance that one of our two flush draws is good as well. Link to post Share on other sites
bdc30 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Ok, I'll be the first one to say fold.Sure the correct odds might state that we're 28.xxxxx % to winand might be getting the correct odds (by the slightest of margins)but with only $600 in the pot, needing to call of the rest of our 3 grand,I'd rather be the guy with AAxx in this spot than the guy with our hand.Plus, I don't raise this pf from early position, maybe limp, which makesit a much easier fold. Link to post Share on other sites
The Nuts 0 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 The odds dictate a call. So mathematically, it's correct to call.But you're definitely behind in this pot and it is possible that your flush may be trumped by other clubs or spades, which would leave you with less outs than you expected. I'm expecting one of these two to have AAxx double suited (probably the all in push).I make this call. It's a cash game after all, I could always rebuy in if I don't mind sparing the money. I'd probably lay it down in most tournament situations. Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo 0 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Ok, I'll be the first one to say fold.Sure the correct odds might state that we're 28.xxxxx % to winand might be getting the correct odds (by the slightest of margins)but with only $600 in the pot, needing to call of the rest of our 3 grand,I'd rather be the guy with AAxx in this spot than the guy with our hand.HUH? Consider a hold'em example: You have 72o and your opponent has 77. There is $1,000,000 in the pot. Your opponent pushes for $1. This is the easiest call in the world.Obviously you'd rather be the guy holding 77, but folding 72o because you don't like your hand is idiotic. Link to post Share on other sites
canadapoker5 0 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 With the odds the way they are I would call here. Link to post Share on other sites
BudBundy 0 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I'd accidently hit fold and make sure everyone knows it was a misclick. Link to post Share on other sites
xtxoxpxd 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 my intial thought was fold. then it was, wait, these players are sharing aces, call! then it was wait, is my hand even a favorite against 2 aces?i decided the answer was fold before i ran my simulation.29% favorite against two AA hands, i didn't randomize the xx but i made one pretty strong and one very strong.since we are essentially putting in our last 2400 for a 9000 pot, we need to win 26.6% of the time. so... call! Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I voted fold. Our opponents certainly don't need good aces to make this kind of move, and if we're against something like KK98 and AA54, we're in a world of hurt. Just because we have good pot odds if we're against big pairs that don't dominate us at all, doesn't mean that isn't made up for by the few times we're 10% to win the pot. Link to post Share on other sites
xtxoxpxd 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I voted fold. Our opponents certainly don't need good aces to make this kind of move, and if we're against something like KK98 and AA54, we're in a world of hurt. Just because we have good pot odds if we're against big pairs that don't dominate us at all, doesn't mean that isn't made up for by the few times we're 10% to win the pot. but do "very tight players" reraise the pot with KK98? Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I voted fold. Our opponents certainly don't need good aces to make this kind of move, and if we're against something like KK98 and AA54, we're in a world of hurt. Just because we have good pot odds if we're against big pairs that don't dominate us at all, doesn't mean that isn't made up for by the few times we're 10% to win the pot.For what it's worth, have some numbers.With no live suits:pokenum -mc 500000 -o kc ks 9s 8c - ad ah 4h 5h - 3c 4c 5s 8s Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVKs 9s Kc 8c 194334 38.87 304147 60.83 1519 0.30 0.390Ad Ah 5h 4h 212805 42.56 256673 51.33 30522 6.10 0.4568s 5s 4c 3c 60820 12.16 407139 81.43 32041 6.41 0.154With one live suit:pokenum -mc 500000 -o kh ks 9s 8c - ad ah 4h 5h - 3c 4c 5s 8s Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EVKs 9s 8c Kh 170048 34.01 328416 65.68 1536 0.31 0.342Ad Ah 5h 4h 205383 41.08 263931 52.79 30686 6.14 0.4418s 5s 4c 3c 92347 18.47 375431 75.09 32222 6.44 0.217 Link to post Share on other sites
greatwhite 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 It's time to gamble. Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon 0 Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Two tight players are almost certain to have AA hands here. The second player is virtually certain to have AA and not to have KK, especially if he is putting in the third raise after a very tight player reraises. A very tight player usually won't commit the majority of his stack preflop without aces.Your hand is potentially huge favorite in a three-way pot (45%) if your opponents have hands like A A J T and A A K Q . You are mainly in some trouble, but still not horribly dead if your opponents hold higher draws in both of your suits. If your opponents are really tight, they might not just have AA, but will also have higher coordinated cards that are less likely to interfere with the low straight or two pair that you are hoping to make (plus, they are more likely to hold each others outs). It's actually better for you if your opponents wouldn't raise with a hand like AA73 but would only play something like AAKQ or AAJ9 this way. Link to post Share on other sites
MGFish 0 Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 There is NO WAY i call here.Sure, pot odds might add up for a call. But Pot odds are there as a guide - they DO NOT dictate definetively what you should and should not do!Why not just fold knowing you are drawing slim and save the money to play another hand.Hell, i dont want to gamble off most of my stack because im 25% to win the hand and im getting the correct odds.You can't assume your suits are outs for you either, infact - i'd go ahead and assume they are not outs.By calling this raise, the only way you win this pot is to get lucky and hit the board, hard! Again, no way i call here Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon 0 Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Why not just fold knowing you are drawing slim and save the money to play another hand.Because you probably are not drawing slim and might even be a huge favorite. Link to post Share on other sites
MGFish 0 Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 how can you be a huge favourite??????is one guy holding 2-2-2-2 Link to post Share on other sites
yergan 0 Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Hell, i dont want to gamble off most of my stack because im 25% to win the hand and im getting the correct odds.Are you serious? Link to post Share on other sites
LooseCannon 0 Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 how can you be a huge favourite??????is one guy holding 2-2-2-2Did you not read my previous post? You would be 45% to win in a three-way pot if your opponents held a pair of hands like A A J T and A A K Q . That counts as being a huge favorite. Link to post Share on other sites
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