13 replies to this topic

[Greatest I am]

Is faith in fiction good faith? Miracles.Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison The Abraham religions, Christianity, Islam etc., are based on revealed unproven so called truths, handed down through prophets and shaman. They are based on the literal belief of Hebrew and Jewish scriptures that the Jews and Hebrews never believed in in a literal way and were quite surprised when Christians and Muslims began to believe in these texts that were just a plagiarized version of even older beliefs from Egypt and Sumer. I recognize the use of faith and hope, religion and church and promote it in my own way when not fighting literalists and fundamentals. I am after all a religionist.I recognize the value of faith and hope, religion and church, in our societies. I have seen their good works. I do not like the way they teach of God though.I do not like the churches or other venues that promote the belief in a God of fantasy and magic, retribution and hell.We all seek to know God deeper and more fully. You cannot know him if you begin from a position in belief that all has been created with miracles. Miracles are by their nature unexplainable. You cannot build a philosophy or theology for good living from such a start. This is likely why the Vatican and other mainline religions now recognize the veracity of evolution. They accentuate that scriptures are not to be read literally and yet most have based their faith on literal reading of scripture.Believers in fantasy and magic are not believing their leadership. They also will not believe science.If literalists are not to have faith in the leadership of their own religions and are not to believe the scientific world, what, other than their own opinion, are they believing in? Does this mean that they have all invented their own ideas of God and does this make them all idol worshipers? Or. Does it just make them Gnostics within their own religions?I think it does. Do you?My basic question to believers then is, knowing that your beliefs and Word are fantasy, magic or miracle based, what belief exactly is it that keeps you in your religion?Can your belief be maintained without your belief in miracles?RegardsDL

[BigDMcGee]

[Balloon guy]

This is the first I've heard that the Jews don't think Moses led them to the promise land through miracles and the protection and providence of god.You might be mistaken here as well.

[speedz99]

Balloon guy, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

This is the first I've heard that the Jews don't think Moses led them to the promise land through miracles and the protection and providence of god.

I think that only extremely orthodox jews, a fairly small minority within the religion, believe that god literally tossed down manna from heaven, etc. And I'm not even sure they believe that...all I can tell you for sure is that the vast majority of jews believe that the bible is full of stories written as teaching tools, possibly based loosely on fact.

[BigDMcGee]

speedz99, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 1:55 PM, said:

I think that only extremely orthodox jews, a fairly small minority within the religion, believe that god literally tossed down manna from heaven, etc. And I'm not even sure they believe that...all I can tell you for sure is that the vast majority of jews believe that the bible is full of stories written as teaching tools, possibly based loosely on fact.

Allegory is the devil's literary device, christ killer.

[Balloon guy]

speedz99, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 11:55 AM, said:

I think that only extremely orthodox jews, a fairly small minority within the religion, believe that god literally tossed down manna from heaven, etc. And I'm not even sure they believe that...all I can tell you for sure is that the vast majority of jews believe that the bible is full of stories written as teaching tools, possibly based loosely on fact.

I am not as in tune with the Jewish faith as you, so I will back off my contention that the Jews believe that Moses was real and led them out of Egypt.But I suspect that I am speaking for the Jews throughout most of history, and you are speaking for American Jews in the last few decades.

[BigDMcGee]

Balloon guy, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 2:02 PM, said:

I am not as in tune with the Jewish faith as you, so I will back off my contention that the Jews believe that Moses was real and led them out of Egypt.But I suspect that I am speaking for the Jews throughout most of history, and you are speaking for American Jews in the last few decades.

you mean the final generation of goddless jews predicted in the old and new testament that will mark the begining of the end of time?Thanks speedz.

[Balloon guy]

BigDMcGee, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 12:09 PM, said:

you mean the final generation of goddless jews predicted in the old and new testament that will mark the begining of the end of time?Thanks speedz.

Is it wrong to be excited?

[Greatest I am]

Balloon guy, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 11:49 AM, said:

This is the first I've heard that the Jews don't think Moses led them to the promise land through miracles and the protection and providence of god.You might be mistaken here as well.

I invite you to listen to the first few lectures in this series so that you will know where I am coming from and why I have come to the conclusion that I have. http://video.google....558855309830711To show how little we both probably know of the old Jewish beliefs.RegardsDL

[speedz99]

BigDMcGee, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 11:00 AM, said:

Allegory is the devil's literary device, christ killer.

BigDMcGee, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

you mean the final generation of goddless jews predicted in the old and new testament that will mark the begining of the end of time?Thanks speedz.

Rough crowd. But seriously folks...

Balloon guy, on Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 11:02 AM, said:

I am not as in tune with the Jewish faith as you, so I will back off my contention that the Jews believe that Moses was real and led them out of Egypt.But I suspect that I am speaking for the Jews throughout most of history, and you are speaking for American Jews in the last few decades.

I don't mean to be an ass, and I say that because many times I do mean to be an ass, but I think that you're probably making a wild guess (or at least an assumption) when you speak for those jews. I'm not saying that I know what the majority of jews thought a hundred or a thousand years ago, but until you give some sort of reference I'm not quite ready to take your word for it, even though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that you're right. It's a hard thing to judge, since the majority of scholarly works from those eras will be by orthodox thinkers, who don't necessarily represent the religion as a whole any more than suicide bombers represent muslims as a whole these days.

[Greatest I am]

Iliapoli, on Wednesday, November 3rd, 2010, 6:52 AM, said:

Isn't God a miracle? Some people think miracle is something they cannot explain, someones think it is a coincidence, what do you personally think? Everyone is a god of his own world, that is why you never can confidently answer this question. You give the sense to a word 'miracle', why don't you give a sense to God, magic etc.? But you do. Your belief is not standardised, it is regulated by your own thoughts only. God is not upstairs, in clouds, He is inside you.

I agree that God is within but to think God a miracle would mean that I am and I am not. I am part of nature and so is the God that I know.To think otherwise would make me fall into this kind of thinking."Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God, holds other people in contempt.Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise. He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance. Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power."--Robert IngersollI have enough contempt for fools without moving it to contempt for those who are not.If you think God is a miracle then show proof of his reality then all will believe. Reality is hard to refute, your fantasy is quite easy to.RegardsDL

[BigDMcGee]

can someone check ilapoli's ip address, I think that Greatest just created that account so he could actually have points to respond to instead of everyone treating him like the psychotic troll that he is.

[Greatest I am]

BigDMcGee, on Thursday, November 4th, 2010, 9:52 AM, said:

can someone check ilapoli's ip address, I think that Greatest just created that account so he could actually have points to respond to instead of everyone treating him like the psychotic troll that he is.

I preferred what you were saying before you actually learned how to use words.I hope you improve over time.RegardsDL

[BigDMcGee]

Greatest I am, on Thursday, November 4th, 2010, 1:44 PM, said:

I preferred what you were saying before you actually learned how to use words.I hope you improve over time.RegardsDL