A Few General Questions About Limit

[AimHigher 0]

Hi guys,I've just started experimenting with limit. I have a few general things I've been wondering about since I started playing. I haven't read anything on limit yet so these are pretty basic questions and I apologize for that. 1. Should I bet draws like the nut flush draw on every street since I am always going to have odds to draw to it even if I am raised?2. How does limit effect implied odds hands like suited connectors and small pairs? Do they go down in value preflop or can I still raise them?3. How loose/tight should I be calling 3-bets/4-bets preflop as often I am getting good pot odds?4. How much does position matter in limit? I feel less concerned about playing OOP with marginal hands in limit since I know I can check-call cheaply.5. I keep seeing people randomly float with overs to the board. I don't think this can be very profitable in the long run unless they are getting something like 10:1. Is there something I don't know or is it just because I've been trying .05/.10?6. How often should I be making continuation bets against 1 or 2 opponents? I kinda feel like I need to pull it back in limit since my continuation bets have less fold equity.

[martinmc 0]

Don't know about online as most of my experience is live but in my opinion1. I like to bet, raise, and cap with strong draws on the flop, but not the turn or river. This can give you a free card and helps disguise big hands.2. depends on the table, the tighter the table to less valuable they are, at loose crazy table i like to start building a pot. it also depends on how big you want your swings to be.3. Again depends on the table and how big you want the swings to be and how tight or loose the table is, your image is important here as well, if your seen as a maniac you'll be paid off alot more top pair like hands4. position is huge, the cheap check calling is what will eventually kill you. I prefer raising the flop and taking a free turn or folding to a turn bet5. this all depends on the situation, lots of times people will refuse to give up an flopped top-pair when an overcard hits the turn. also depends heavily on position6. this is all about board texture. there isn't much sense in C beting a rag flop because it's so cheap to get called downhope thats useful, feel free to disagree.

[Zach6668 513]

someone remind me to come back to this when i have more time...

[Sheiky 0]

In the mean time, enjoy this entry from Zach's blog -So, just kinda a story here... I keep pretty retarded hours, so at random times in the middle of the night, I'll feel like some fast food, so I'll head to McDonalds at 4 am, or whatever. There are two that are similar distances from my house. For the longest time, I'd go to the Arthur St. location because there are fewer lights, and it's probably a bit closer. But the service is just terrible... Off the top of my head... - One time, I get there at 4:45 am, wanting to order dinner, but they refuse to serve it because they decided to start serving breakfast, which is supposed to start at 5 am, and specifically the reason I left my house when I did. - Another time, I show up around 4 am and they tell me they can't serve me because the system is down... ok, whatever, cook me the ****ing food, I'll pay in cash, wtf do I care about the system? - Once more, I go at about 4 am and he tells me the system is down AGAIN and they can't serve me, I ask if they like money, they clearly don't, and he starts yelling through the speaker about how they always have to reset the system at 4 am and that I should stop coming at this time. I'm just like, WTF, it's a 24 hour fast food joint, try being open 24 hours. He yells back, I say "nice life, enjoy flipping burgers" and peel out. - Another time, and these aren't necessarily in the right order, but I go through the drive thru while the inside was open (so not between 12 am and 5 am), and they tell me they can't take my order through the drive thru because their computer was down, but they could serve me insde. What? Walk to the inside computer, punch my shit in, then bring it to the ****ing window. It was -40 degrees, and I chose a place with a drive thru so I wouldn't have to get out of my ****ing car. Anyways, so **** them. I'm done with that place. This morning, I take a trip up to the Memorial Street location and order some breakfast. I get up to the window, give the dude my debit card, and you can see he's having trouble, he grabs a few other guys, prolly sups and managers, and they decide the debit machine is down. Ok, no big deal, here, I've got Visa. He refuses to take it and tells me my breakfast is on the house! On the house!!!!! This is a business that likes money! It's entirely possible that I spend more money on fast food than any other individual in this city. If business gave a shit, they'd recognize who their customer base is, and at least try to not employ the monkeys who chase away their money. I guess it's pretty obvious which place I'll be going to from now on to get my fast food fix. And it's not just fast food, it's everything. Sometimes businesses just treat you like shit, like they have no regard for their customers. I mean, if you don't like money, why the **** are you in business? In my scenario, I find it super funny that both are even the same chain. It's not like McD's is famous for shitty service, and I'm comparing it to some 5-star restaurant. They are both McDonalds! Luckily, I've got lots of money to waste on fast food, and to inject back into our economy here. If you don't want some of it, that's fine with me. I'll find the businesses who want it.

[Zach6668 513]

THEFT!

[Biff Goods 0]

A: Bet/raise big draws before the bet doubles (pf/flop). Slow down (not necessarily fold) turn/river B: I'm not sure of the answer of this. i will tell you I play them in position occasionally still for raises but it's only to disguise my big hands and to add variance to my pf raising. C: Another question I think depends on the opponent and your position. It's situational. D: Position is power in all games No Matter What. Especially in Limit poker....Your "cheap calling" might end up being a leak. E: I disagree with less C-betting in Limit. I feel like you should almost always C-bet when pfr. It's your cheapest chance to take down the pot right away and/or find out more information on your opponents holding. The best part about it is if you get check-raised you are only facing .5 of a bb. Not necessarily that scary.

[Viper_13 0]

1-6: It depends on your table/opponents. Certain situations you will have odds. Sometimes you won't. Read Small Stakes Hold 'em. Never underestimate the power of position.

[opie 0]

For someone just starting out at limit, you ask some good questions.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.1. You won't always have odds to chase your draws. It is the same as figuring any odds - look at what it costs, and what it will pay. The nut flush - probably chase it most of the time.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.2. Both go down in value. You can't put in a big river bet and get paid off when it hits. If small pairs only hit a set once every 7.5 hands, you need about 5 people in the pot to make it worthwhile.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.3. Play VERY tight against 3 or 4 bets. You can't put in the big river bet in the rare cases you can beat the premium hands that are 3 or 4 betting.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.4. Position is huge.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.5. With 2 overs, you proably have 6 outs to win the hand, so I'd want 8:1 odds.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.6. I c-bet a lot - it gets a lot of cheap pots and gets info when they don't fold. If villains are calling-stations, then maybe you don't c-bet as much.Zach, come back to this when you have more time.Peace,Opie,p.s. Zach, come back to this when you have more time.

[tj9422- 0]

someone remind me to come back to this when i have more time...

Zach there is only one replay to this post. SSH read it learn it play it.that only took a sec

[Flushgarden 0]

Hi guys,I've just started experimenting with limit. I have a few general things I've been wondering about since I started playing. I haven't read anything on limit yet so these are pretty basic questions and I apologize for that. 1. Should I bet draws like the nut flush draw on every street since I am always going to have odds to draw to it even if I am raised?2. How does limit effect implied odds hands like suited connectors and small pairs? Do they go down in value preflop or can I still raise them?3. How loose/tight should I be calling 3-bets/4-bets preflop as often I am getting good pot odds?4. How much does position matter in limit? I feel less concerned about playing OOP with marginal hands in limit since I know I can check-call cheaply.5. I keep seeing people randomly float with overs to the board. I don't think this can be very profitable in the long run unless they are getting something like 10:1. Is there something I don't know or is it just because I've been trying .05/.10?6. How often should I be making continuation bets against 1 or 2 opponents? I kinda feel like I need to pull it back in limit since my continuation bets have less fold equity.

This post exemplifies a lot of the mistakes most small stakes lhe players make. I haven't read the rest of the thread except for skimming for a Zach post, and he said he'll reply later. If he doesn't I will, but I'm sure he can do a better job of it than I can.

[quadaces 0]

I think stakes definitely determine what you should and shouldn't do when playing. Playing low limits a lot of people will call a flop bet with any overs. They will call with flush or straight draws even if they have to call 2 bets cold. AK will call down to the river a lot just to try and pick off bluffs. Any 2 face cards will get a call pf from any position. Any A will get a call pf. Pretty general but there is a lot of bad pf play in the low limit games. From my experience if you play pretty tight you can make money in low limit games.

[Zach6668 513]

Hi guys,I've just started experimenting with limit. I have a few general things I've been wondering about since I started playing. I haven't read anything on limit yet so these are pretty basic questions and I apologize for that. 1. Should I bet draws like the nut flush draw on every street since I am always going to have odds to draw to it even if I am raised?2. How does limit effect implied odds hands like suited connectors and small pairs? Do they go down in value preflop or can I still raise them?3. How loose/tight should I be calling 3-bets/4-bets preflop as often I am getting good pot odds?4. How much does position matter in limit? I feel less concerned about playing OOP with marginal hands in limit since I know I can check-call cheaply.5. I keep seeing people randomly float with overs to the board. I don't think this can be very profitable in the long run unless they are getting something like 10:1. Is there something I don't know or is it just because I've been trying .05/.10?6. How often should I be making continuation bets against 1 or 2 opponents? I kinda feel like I need to pull it back in limit since my continuation bets have less fold equity.

Ok, sorry for taking so long, I've just been in the process of a long-distance move, and still don't really have a good internet connection, but I'll try to put some thougths together here.The short answer for everything you asked is, "It Depends", naturally.1. This depends on a lot. Flop action: If we're the preflop raiser, than of course we want to c-bet here, since we'll have some good equity. The rest depends on our relative position to the preflop raiser, how strong our draw is, and how many people are in the pot. In limped pots, I'm most likely to just bet out with a strong draw (fd, oesd, dbl gutter, etc, and of course, combo draws), and the reevaluate if it comes back to me raised, as to whether or not to put a 3-bet in.The idea, when we have a draw, specifically in a multiway pot, on the flop, will be to make it as big as we can, as long as we have an equity edge. If there are 4 players in the pot and we have the nut flush draw (thus 9 outs to the nuts, plus some partials for overcards), we will want to build it up as our equity will be 35%, and we'd only be putting in 25% of the money. So, manipulate your relative position to trap people who have already called one bet, and avoid forcing two-cold on the field, etc.Once we get to the turn, it depends on different things. Our equity will have plummetted by quite a bit by the turn if we miss our draw, so jamming is generally not the right idea. At this point, we sorta play a bit with pot odds of calling down, and what our semi bluff fold equity is. If we somehow got to the turn HU, I'd fire a lot (assuming we had the lead on the flop), since we don't need to pick up the pot all that often. If it's multiway, I'd be more likely to check and call, so I don't have to put in too many bets, when we're just chasing. Basically, the outlook on the turn changes to a get there cheaply type concept (aside from semibluffing), from the flop, where we want to build a pot, since our equity is so high.On the river, I would rarely 3-barrell bluff against most guys. Some you can, but for the most part, in 6-max and full ring, once guys call the turn, they're generally showdown bound. If we do have a low draw, that we can only win by bluffing, then we can go for it sometimes, hoping he has a higher draw that also missed, but that's kinda situation dependent and hard to generalize.2. They go down in value preflop. I wouldn't raise them. They're better off seeing a flop cheap, and trying to make extra bets. Of course, implied odds are a lot worse than NL, since we can't stackadonk, but because it's limit, people will still pay off when it's painfully obvious we have the nuts, etc. So it's not 'that' bad. If we're at passive preflop tables, I'd try to take flops in position, in 3+ handed pots. I'd defend the BB with them as well, in multiway pots.3. Not sure what the exact question here is, but never ever raise, and then fold for one more. If we limped along (I would recommend never open limping, of course), and it goes raise/3-bet behind us, we can certainly fold hands that suffer from domination and reverse implied odds. Be careful with suited connectors and small pairs (speculative hands) as well, as our implied odds are shot if we need to pay 4 bets to see a flop. If we raise, and it comes back to us capped, we can certainly fold the weakest parts of our range (KJo, KTo type hands), that just don't fare well against 3-bets and caps.4. Position is very important in limit because we get to control how much money goes in the pot being in position. Being OOP is still tricky. Although it's easier than playing NL OOP, it's kind of a different beast. You'll find in limit that getting value in thin spots is the way the money is made, and it's very tough to do that OOP, when a villain will check behind with weaker hands, and only bet hands better than ours, etc. In position, we get to control whether that extra bet goes in or not, generally.5. Most people will peel flops with overs, and it's not a huge leak, if at all. Depends on the texture of the board, how strong their overs are, and what not. I would almost never give them a full 6 outs, unless it's a heads up pot against a well defined range, but for the most part, we do need to discount them. I would be a lot more weary about peeling with overs, especially OOP, in multiway pots, where one pair won't rate to be the best hand by the end. There's certainly some RIO involved in peeling for one pair. A good way to think about it, would be to ask yourself whether you'd be comfortable raising the turn if you did hit your overcard. If you are, then you should probably peel. If not, it'd be a good spot to let the hand go.6. I c-bet 100% of the time against 1 opponent in 6-max or full ring. They tend to get a decent amount of respect, fwiw, and it's also good to balance your ranges, so you're not just always betting when you do have a hand. When I play HUHU, there are some flops I check behind, just because of the way my villain's ranges are distributed, it means I'm getting raised or called far too often. That'd be something long to explain, and doesn't apply a ton to ring games anyways. If you always c-bet heads up, you wouldn't give much, if anything up.3-handed is a bit different, and depends on reads. Some guys play very fit/fold, so we can c-bet these guys, others chase and peel and float, etc, so we want to be a bit more discriminatory, and bet for value (not that A-high can sometimes be a value bet when we miss with a hand like AK).4-handed or more, I'll generally just bet if I hit the flop.In 2 or 3 handed situations, if we did c-bet, and we get to the turn heads up, against a lot of guys, I'm looking to fire a second barrell. Lots of guys peel light, so we need to punish them for that. On the other hand, if guys slowplay a lot, be more likely to just give up on the hand. And as always, this all depends on board texture and what fell on the turn.I think that covers most of it. I'll be around more often now for follow up questions, or whatever, or if anyone wants to just tell me how wrong I am, since I haven't played 6 or ring in like a year.