don't be a punk like me, or you'll get berated

[akishore 0]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: akino1 is UTG with A:diamond:, J:diamond:. Hero raises, Hero calls.Flop: (7.50 SB) 8:diamond:, T:diamond:, 7:club: (2 players)Hero checks, GREATMAN_222 bets, GREATMAN_222 calls.Turn: (7.75 BB) 2:spade: (2 players)Hero checks, GREATMAN_222 bets, Hero calls.River: (9.75 BB) 6:heart: (2 players)Hero checks, GREATMAN_222 bets, Hero folds.Final Pot: 10.75 BBGREATMAN_222: hey akino dont ever try that again punkthoughts on any streets?aseem

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Looks fine. Did you respond?

[screech 0]

I play it the exact same.punk.

[akishore 0]

if y'all play it the exact same, why are we capping the flop?? i just did it from peer pressure; tim was next to me and he says "cap!" and i mindlessly cap. aseem

[screech 0]

I cap the flop because we are about 50/50 to win this hand, and it does wonders for our image. This guy obviously has you labelled as a retarded LAG now after his punk comments, so you will probably get excess action from him in the future. Also, if you hit your hand, it will be somewhat disguised.

[monoatomic 0]

After the preflop 3bet I might have just called the flop 3bet. I don't know if he's good enough to slow down with his QQ KK AA in this spot when a straight or flush card comes out. Obviously he likes his hand to bet it and 3 bet it regardless of the fact the flop is very draw heavy.Check raise the turn if you hit your hand, or play it like you did if you don't improve.

[Sushiman 0]

Aki didn't cap the flop, and unless he has been getting way out of hand previously the guy has no reason to label him as a serious LAG. You only win this half the time if you assume both of your overcards are good, which is an assumption that I don't think he can make here. If there a couple more people in the hand maybe, but heads up capping here for value doesn't make sense to me. This cap is to take control of the hand and try to get a free turn card. If the turn is an A, and villain bets, you are raising?

[screech 0]

Aki didn't cap the flop

Yeah he did.

and unless he has been getting way out of hand previously the guy has no reason to label him as a serious LAG

Previous action doesn't really matter. He may think he is a LAG or a stupid donkey for capping the flop then folding for one more bet on the river. Hence the punk comment. I guaruntee this will get Aseem extra action vs this player on future hands.

You only win this half the time if you assume both of your overcards are good, which is an assumption that I don't think he can make here.

I said around 50/50.We have 12 outs to a straight or better which are all likely clean. We only need 14 outs to be a slight favorite (51%).So both our overcard outs don't have to be good here to make this close to 50/50. The added benefits of capping (more action later + disguised hand), makes this a good cap IMO.We can cap for value if only 2 of our overcard outs are clean.

This cap is to take control of the hand and try to get a free turn card. If the turn is an A, and villain bets, you are raising?

We can't get a free card OOP. Villian can take one, but we can't.If the turn is an A, and we check then he bets, why on earth would we raise?

[Sysvr4 0]

Capping the flop here is pretty horrible. If you had position, I'd give you a cap high-five for it if you took the free card.Jeff

[screech 0]

Capping the flop here is pretty horrible. If you had position, I'd give you a cap high-five for it if you took the free card.Jeff

How can capping the flop be bad when it's probably for value?

[greatwhite 0]

I'm not capping this flop.

[Sysvr4 0]

How can capping the flop be bad when it's probably for value?

That's just it. I think you're being too generous with your out count, so I don't think it's for value. We are behind to AA, JJ, and TT all of which cause us to discount outs further than you have. Best case is KK/QQ and we're 54/46 against those and still first to act on the turn.If you want to be really pedantic about it, list for us villain's hand range (taking into account his 3-bet of the flop after we c/r) and our outs against him. Average the outs and use that for your equity number. If it's above 50/50, I'll be moderately surprised.Even if you're right and it's close to 50/50, we're still OOP which gives our villain an advantage which negates some of our equity. Moreover, if we hit on the turn, we instantly gain an advantage by calling the flop 3-bet because we can now c/r our opponent. We win more when we hit and lose less when we don't with the following line:Flop: call 3-betTurn: check/call if you miss, check/raise if you hitJeff

[DLizzle 0]

For the discussion on capping the flop. In these situation, I like to lean towards being a maniac. I've tried both, and the maniac image is awesome, plus many people give you a free card on the turn there. Plus if you hit, its a nice pot plus you still look like a maniac to many people. I cap this every time.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Capping the flop here is pretty horrible.  If you had position, I'd give you a cap high-five for it if you took the free card.Jeff

How can capping the flop be bad when it's probably for value?

im not so sure cappin the flop is for value.

[jjdylan 0]

If you're going to cap this flop OOP, you've gotta lead the turn. If i cap the flop, i definitley lead the turn, then check/fold the river unimproved. With the strength he showed preflop i think you're better off just calling the 3rd bet and then the rest looks fine. If we have position on him, this all totally changes however.my .02

[screech 0]

im not so sure cappin the flop is for value.

It probably is.The number of outs we need to make this cap for value is found by:(y/45) + [(45-y)/45](y/44)] = 0.5If we solve this we get:45y^2 - 4005y + 44550 = 0This yields a value of y = 13.So to make this cap profitable, we need 13 outs vs. our opponents range of hands.If he's loose, his range when he 3-bets the flop may be:AA-77, AcKc, AcJc, AT, and Ac9c.Against this range we have an average of 13.9 outs, so the cap is profitable.If he's somewhat tight, his range after the flop 3-bet may be:AA-99, AcJc, ATs.Against this range we have an average of 13.8 outs.If he is a tight player, his range after the flop 3-bet may bet:AA-JJ.Against this range we have an average of 14.25 outs! We would actually prefer this raiser to be tigher (I had no idea.)Either way, we can profitably cap this flop for value.

If you're going to cap this flop OOP, you've gotta lead the turn.

I probably would, because I'm a donkey like that. But in fact, if you miss the turn, it would be much better to check/call the turn. This is because:1) we have very little fold equity2) we will often get raisedThe less I autobet, the less I lose. :-)

[Sysvr4 0]

im not so sure cappin the flop is for value.

It probably is.

Let's do this another way. Counting outs is actually a bad way to calculate this, and measuring equity is much better.Why? Because with hands like TT and QQ villain has redraws that we must account for that are not included in our out counts. We're measuring only what it takes for us to beat his current holding, rather than win the pot (which most of us will agree is the ultimate goal).Does anyone (especially Akishore, since you played with him) dispute that the most probable hand range for villain is: AA - KK - QQ - JJ - TT? I mean honestly... how many people 3-bet a c/r on the flop with AK?. If he's a maniac, fine, we'll broaden it, but I think this is the most likely range for the default player.That said, I calculated our equity against AA-TT, always using clubs and spades (thus giving us the greatest equity). The number given is our equity on the flop. Results:AcAs - 46.67%KcKs - 54.14%QcQs - 54.14% JcJs - 46.06% *TcTs - 32.93%If you take the average of those, you get 46.788%. Add that to the fact that we're OOP and we can actually earn more by check/raising a turn when we hit and this is a call on the flop 3-bet. Capping = spewing, if only slightly.Jeff* Jacks skew things because of the split. Our villain equity shows as 43.64% in pokenum.

[MrNiceGuy 0]

If you take the average of those, you get 46.788%. Add that to the fact that we're OOP and we can actually earn more by check/raising a turn when we hit and this is a call on the flop 3-bet. Capping = spewing, if only slightly..

Well, a straight average isn't quite fair, since the holdings are not equally probably (KK and QQ are more likely holdings for villain than AA, for example). Equity-wise, it's probably about even, I would guess.I like just calling the 3-bet on the flop, because I think it sets up future action better. If you spike a diamond, you can then go for a c/r on the turn, and if you miss, your check doesn't give away your hand (whereas if you cap the flop and check it blank turn, it strongly suggests that you're on a strong draw).

[Abbaddabba 0]

If you take the average of those, you get 46.788%. Add that to the fact that we're OOP and we can actually earn more by check/raising a turn when we hit and this is a call on the flop 3-bet. Capping = spewing, if only slightly.

10's are less likely than any of the other overpairs given the number of hand combinations given that 1 is already exposed. You need to weight it accordingly. A/10 is another hand combination that, while raise, isnt out of the question - as are a variety of other hands including AK.It's also possible that he's doing this with a lower flush draw, in which case we have huge equity.

[custom36 4]

Not sure why there are so many replies to this (granted, I didn't read them, so that tends to happen). This is standard.On the flop we have 17 outs. 17 OUTS!!! If I'm not mistaken, we could be a favorite on this flop.Turn makes us a slight dog, so a call is good.We missed all of our outs on the river, and we fold A-high.Aseem, your response should be, "Thought you were bluffing."

[pokerplayer24 0]

On the flop we have 17 outs. 17 OUTS!!! If I'm not mistaken, we could be a favorite on this flop.

Its pretty unlikely that our J outs are good.With his likely hand range being AA-77Against KK and QQ we have 3 A outs, 3 9 outs and 9 flush outs for 15 outs.Against AA we have 12 outsAgainst JJ we have 12 outs to win and 3 outs to split. Against 99 we most likely have something around 12 outs as well.Against 1010, 88, 77 I don't know our exact outs but we're something like 33%.In heads up pots were at best we're a slight favorite I think we're better off staying away from capping.

[Actuary 3]

looks good.I guess the flop Cap is close; but I think it gets a free card often enough. Certainly the c/r is solid.Again, for someone with yuor experience, I don't think it's post worthy.No offense. (I'd post it..but I've only played 15k hands)I'm trrying to give you a compliment.****read replies******wow..way to much fuss over 1 small bet on flop that is pretty darn close on a math basis..but gold for metagame. imo.I use that "free card" term even though we are OOP. Screech says there is no such thing. Well, I'm not sure what it's called; but once in a while, fearing a check raise, they give it to you.

[Canada 0]

wow..way to much fuss over 1 small bet on flop that is pretty darn close on a math basis..but gold for metagame. imo

<Wipes away tears of pride>Our little boy has made it to the big league

[Sysvr4 0]

but gold for metagame. imo.

Anyone who agrees with this cap should be advocating leading the turn. Metagame is not enough to cap when you back down and check/call the turn. It removes any fold equity you may have built with your cap.If you're going to cap (which I don't believe is for value), you have to lead the turn.Furthermore, I haven't seen anyone address the point that we make more (or lose less) on the hand by calling the flop 3-bet and check/raising the turn. I do not believe the cap line affords us that opportunity. It almost seems like you guys are advocating aggression for aggression's sake.Jeff

[screech 0]

If you're going to cap (which I don't believe is for value), you have to lead the turn.

I have already showed that the cap is for value, unless there is some mistake in my calculation.Futhermore, we do not have to bet the turn UI for the reasons I outlined in my previous post. Namely:1) We will have little fold equity.2) We will frequently get raised.Additionally, we may get the free card if we are occassionally check/raising the turn OOP with strong hands after we had the lead on the flop. This is a good strategy that we should implement into our game.Finally, we will improve on the turn to a pair of aces or better around 30% of the time. It's not like we're going to always be checking this turn.

It almost seems like you guys are advocating aggression for aggression's sake.

Nope. I'm advocating the play that I think has the most +EV.